This Girl KAM with Caoimhe Vallely-Gilroy

Caoimhe: 00:00:05

Hello. Welcome to this girl.

Liv: 00:00:06

Come where we chat to wonderful women doing fabulous things in pharma. I'm Liv Nixon, and today I'm talking to Kiva Vallee Gilroy. Previously Global Head of Digital Health and Therapeutics for Merck, and now an independent advisor to pharma and life science companies. Kiva is a passionate advocate for patients rights, a self-proclaimed science nerd, and data enthusiast. Kiva focuses her work on how she can make life better for patients and enable a healthier population. It took just a couple of minutes chatting on the phone with Kiva to know this was an interview I wanted to do in person. So here we are. Kiva has flown over from her home in Germany. I've jumped on a train down to London, and here we are, ready to do this. So let's get going. Hello, Kiva. Welcome to the show. Hi, Liv. Thanks very much for having me. You are very welcome. This is a complete first for both of us, as we were just saying. So I've never been in an actual real life recording studio before, and I don't think you have either,

Caoimhe: 00:01:03

have you? Yes, but a very long time ago and as part of a school choir. Okay. Really not part of this. It's not same? No. Not quite the same, no.

Liv: 00:01:12

Okay. So to kick us off, Kiva, could you please tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Caoimhe: 00:01:18

So, really interesting question cuz I never quite know how to answer that. So just a little bit about me. I'm from Northern Ireland originally but I've lived abroad for almost 17 years now. I've spent that entire time primarily in the life science and pharma industry. I accidentally fell into pharma to be perfectly honest with you. I didn't mean to do it. It just kind of, Got me on the way past, and I thought, oh yeah, okay, I'll have a go at that. But I moved, I left Belfast after I finished my undergraduate degree in genetics, and I moved to Basil in Switzerland to take up a postgraduate research fellowship at the Friedrich Me Institute. And essentially I spent an entire year in a lab realizing that I love science and I don't love the lab. And that's really where I thought, no I, this is not really my thing. And I was very lucky that I met a really cool Irish lady in Basel. And I don't actually remember how I met her but I, she turned out she was head of a a recruiting company. And so she then ended up getting me into an interview with Fisher Clinical Services and as a project manager and I. Took on that role in the end, and that was pretty much how I ended up in industry rather than in academia or in a lab setting. So I went straight into the project management, clinical development side of the life sciences and pharma industry. And I haven't really looked back. I think probably the best way to describe me is more of an opportunist, really. I have very short attention span and I like to be kept entertained and I get grumpy when I'm bored. So I I'm really interested. I lifelong learner. I really can't stop learning and I love to, to read and to learn more about what's going on. So I've kind of just moved through. The entire healthcare space into areas that really interest me. So having gone from early stage research development and I'm talking Polycom genes, body segmentation genes, right at the very early stuff of my career in the early research which has still never come to the light of day. So that's still, that still is a long time away from me into the clinic through to the actual clinical development stuff. So the clinical trials, the development of diagnostic tests and then in two digital and data, which for me kind of culminated as a a real intersection of all of the things that I really believe in that the healthcare industry should move to. And that was kind of really why I moved away from pure operations of clinical trials into, okay, we do that, but It's a super old process. It's very well regulated. It's very well no one, but it's not fit for purpose for what society needs. Yeah. And it's not fit for purpose, for the fact that technology and understanding of disease has massively outpaced our treatments and are able to develop and our approach to health in general. And I mean, I think one of the big things that came out of Covid that. I heard so many people say that it became too much of a buzzword for me is the health is your wealth. And to a certain extent that is a hundred percent correct, but right now it's still a buzzword. Yeah. It's talking when people say that, they talk about it in a, okay, you've been fixed, so you were ill and now you've been fixed in, therefore it's back. But to me it was, well, why be broken in the first place? Why not start from the position of let's not let you get sick? First. And so for me, all of the clinical development stuff, all of the digital and data stuff is really leaning towards where I believe very wholeheartedly that the healthcare industry need to go. So that's kind of just me in from a work perspective in a nutshell. Outside of work I mainly work. That's probably where we are. And I think, you know, people say, you know, if you. If you get a job you love, you never work a day in your life. Yeah. Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? Yeah. Well, I can always understand bullshit, not bullshit. That's all I have to say to that one. Or bollocks depending on my mood at the time, because essentially what happens is you get a job that you love, you get passionate about it, and you work all of the hours in the day. So, it is really this doesn't count. So yeah, I work an awful lot because I love what I do. I am working very hard on changing that perspective. I would like to move towards living and not just existing. Yeah. I have a cat who probably saved my sanity during Covid. Yeah. I live in Germany, so it was a very, I isolating experience to be away from friends and found I have. Friends in Germany, obviously, but to be away from family. And I come from quite a large Irish family. So we are tend to be in each other's business quite a lot. And to have been away from that and to have had several Christmases where my mother, who is the Christmas ferry you could have sworn that the world had ended because we weren't having Christmas properly. To be away from that was quite isolating. So to have a ginger cat who has one brain cell and is an absolute idiot, but very entertaining, probably saved my sanity, which means he is far more spoiled than he should be. But I mean, it's a cat. How badly can you spoil a cat? He can what? He's not gonna be grow. He's not gonna grow up to be a dictator here. Uh, he It's all good. Yeah, and really that's kind of it. I love to dive. I'm scuba diver. Oh, really? I'm a recently qualified dive master, so I'm very proud of myself on that one, which allows me to, to assistant teach and to, to basically, if I ever decide to give up any form of life science and pharma, I can disappear off to the Caribbean and take tourists on nice dive dive guide nice tour. So that's essentially what I do mostly in my spare time. And I took that up even though I didn't want to. But a friend of mine. Convinced me to learn to dive because they wanted to go on a boat trip in Indonesia, live aboard dive trip in Indonesia. And she said to me, if you go on it, then it makes our tickets cheaper. And I said, I'm not sure how that works out for me cause I wasn't planning on spending that money to start off with. But I'm a bit of a sucker for boats. I really enjoy being on a boat and so it was a dive boat. It's a nice boat. I went on the boat and I had to learn to dive before I went, so Oh,

Liv: 00:07:36

absolutely. Petrifies me. Oh, they're going under the, it's the, yeah, my husband was, did it all when he was traveling and there's a qualified paddy Yeah. And and he goes, and I won't go with him. I'll stay, you know, when we're on holidays and stuff like that and I just,

Caoimhe: 00:07:50

I'm too scared. That's, I honestly, if you would've seen me learning to dive, you would've gone. That girl's never gone in the water. I learned to dive in Germany, so I live in Germany and I learned to dive in Germany and I live. At that stage I lived in Frankfurt. And as you can imagine, there's no sea near Frankfurt. Bit far to go to do your open water qualifications. Yeah. Which you have to do outside of a swimming pool. So in Germany you do them in a lake, right? No, I don't like lakes. No lakes are slimy. And muddy and things touch in it that have been there for a long time. Yeah. I'm not a big fan of Lake, so I was not what you would I was I said, I was very proficient. I was the world's best technical instruction diver as a learner because I knew everything in the book. That wasn't a problem. But you put me into the lake and I was having none of it. I was out. I something touched my foot, I was gone. This was the end of it. I was not doing this. And I think if you'd watched me then to now, you would've been like, no, there's no chance she's ever diving. I'm also quite claustrophobic. And for me, I just immediately thought no. I'm gonna hate diving. That's gonna make me feel claustrophobic. Yeah. I have an irrational fear of getting my shoulders stuck in a concrete pipe. It's irrational because I've never been in a concrete pipe and. Nor would I go in a concrete pipe underwater. No. But yeah. Anyway, so, but I, it turned out actually I find diving once I'm on, once I got over the initial, I don't like lakes issue. I find diving quite pleasant. I find it very meditative because I learned to dive in German and my German's not as good as my English, right? So I have less words in my, in German. So when I'm underwater, I actually think in German. And because I know less words, I think less. And therefore I find it very relaxing. And I'm also, I think what kind of. Offset. The claustrophobia issue was, I'm blind in one eye, so I'm partially sided. Right. And I've always been blind in my right eye. So I don't have 3D vision. Everything looks like the Simpsons. To me. Everything's flat in 2d. Yes. Wow. And I, have you ever seen that episode of Father Ted where they go to the caravan? so basically Ted and Dougle are in the caravan and they're explaining, Ted is explaining to Dougle why the toy Kai is small, but the chii in the field also looks small. And he's saying to dougle, this one's small and this one's far away. So trying to explain the difference. So that's essentially how I've gone through life is that one's far away and if it's getting bigger then it's getting closer. It's getting closer. So. The, I actually, I worry that the vision would be an issue diving. And it turned out to be completely opposite. Everybody suffers with difference in depth perception in diving just because of the light refraction underwater. No. So I was busy going, oh, this is just exactly the same as what I normally see. So, yeah. No way.

Liv: 00:10:43

Right. Okay. We're totally digressing, aren't we already? Yeah. It's fine. So talk to me about, you said obviously you're working. An awful lot of the time because you're passionate about what you do. Tell me about your passions and your values and your, the things that motivate you that keep you going, doing what you

Caoimhe: 00:10:59

do. Okay. I'm aware we only have a certain length of time, so I will try and keep to that. I think one of the things that, that I almost struggle with is that I, it would, my life would be a so much easier if I had one very distinct passion as opposed to a spectrum of passions. Yeah. I think it's the best way to describe it. All of my, my, all of my passion is around, Healthcare and providing healthcare. And I mean, and I always stress healthcare because I think at the moment, the way the industry is set up and the way our society is set up is that we don't do healthcare. We do sick care. And for me that is just not right. And I feel it's unethical as well to do it that way. So that's kind of my overarching mean passion is it's not about fixing something whenever there's a, an issue or an emergency. It's about how do we empower people with an understanding of their own health an early warning system to address things before they become a problem so that they can live people, live their lives in the way that is most reflective of what they want to do. So I'm a big. Believer in everybody having autonomous ownership of their own health data. And I like the phrase, you know, autonomous ownership of your own health data to make decisions based on your life choices, based on your your lifestyle. And I think that's really important because I don't think we should have the right to dictate. We can swing on the very, on the other end of the spectrum and say, you know, well, you're gonna be penalized if you're a certain you know, if you don't do a certain number of steps a day, you're gonna be penalized if you're a certain weight or you're gonna be penalized. I think we can swing far too far the other side of it and say, you know, this is what health is. You must remain within that. And I don't believe that's what health is. I believe what health is about high people, and it is people because it's about everybody high. Everybody can be empowered to be at a level in their lives that they can do the things that they love to do and that they can contribute in the way that they feel passionate about. Yeah. And so for me, it That's super important. And how we do it is then suddenly when that spectrum breaks out for me and all of the different things become incredibly important. Like I hugely passionate about women's health. I'm massively passionate about preventative healthcare. Yeah. Early intervention, I'm a huge believer in how do we change the pharma industry so that we stop looking at reactive drugs and we look at early interventions, and that's a change in entire change in the business model of pharma because essentially you're then having to turn around and say, well, I need to convince you to start developing treatments that essentially if they work, you never see that they work because you never see the progression in the patient. And so that that's a very hard sell to say ESP to regulators as well. You know, this patient, this person. Could potentially develop this. So we're gonna give them this so that they never develop it. Yeah, cool. But you'll never know. You'll never know. So it's a really hard sell in that respect. But yeah, so, so it's a big wide spectrum of all the things that I'm really passionate about.

Liv: 00:14:24

So, okay. God, there's a lot to unpack there, isn't there? so is that then looking at digital health and what individuals, rather than saying the generic, this is how you have to do this number of steps. Cause it's not the same for everyone. So depending on how you want to live your life and the world that you live in. We need to move to preventative medicine that is entirely bespoke to each

Caoimhe: 00:14:49

individual. Yin, which is my f favorite German word, which means yes, no, at the same time, I like that. I think that in the utopian world, yes, we would be able to have, and if we unpack exactly what you said there is the difference between the early interventions, the actual therapies, there's behavioral change, there is managing risk factors. And understanding and identifying risk factors. And then there is the digital monitoring of people. So all of that, ideally in the utopian world would be delivered and micro and designed right down exactly to the individual. I'm slightly more realistic in that right now. I'm not entirely sure industrially we can do that. Yeah. Whether it is something that actually is a valid business model because realistically I do have to sit between the. The what is science fiction and what is a business is gonna be able to sustain? So how do we make those incremental changes where business is still available and sustainable as we move towards this idea of whether it is 3D printing, individual doses of your drug, whether it is understanding from longitudinal data collection points that different people are different metabolizers. So one drug might require 50% of the dose that in one person that it may require in another person, and one person might metabolize that drug better in the morning versus one person might do it better in the evening. And so that's, that is, you know, the level of personalization that I believe we can get to. Yeah. I just don't think, I don't think we should attempt to boil the ocean immediately. We do need to go in, in small steps. I'd love to just go from one day to the next, from the standard of care to, this is an entirely personalized journey for you. But I think convincing people to do that is probably gonna be much harder than just me standing up and talking about how wonderful an idea it would be. So from that respect, yin I'll take a yin y. That's okay. Y quite like yin. I might adopt that. Yeah. Do It's a great word. It's a great word.

Liv: 00:17:11

Okay. So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your move into independent life and independent work. So you were at Merck for a few years. Yeah. Novartis Roosh. Yeah. Both for that, so very much the big pharma world. So talk to me a little bit about your decision to move away from that and what motivated that Really totally

Caoimhe: 00:17:32

accidental not deliberate at all, didn't mean to do it even slightly. Thought I was having a holiday. It's in so worst

Liv: 00:17:43

holiday ever. Yeah. It's the strangest

Caoimhe: 00:17:45

holiday. So I, yes, like you said I worked at Merck for six years and I left Merck at the end of December, 2022. And purely because my ambition and my passion essentially was not, I didn't, wasn't aligned specifically with the company's strategic goals at that stage. So we very amicably parted wise at the end of December. And I said, right, okay. So I thought, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take my time. I'm gonna find the right place. I want to find a home. So I'm very motivated by the environment that I work in and wanting to work in an environment where I feel like it's a home. I wanted a group of similarly engaged and ambitious and directioned kind of individuals that had our culture that I really wanted to buy in. So I kind of sat back and I thought, right. Had lots of conversations. I had lots of conversations and I have to be very honest, I was getting more and more frustrated cuz I was having conversations with people and I'm, I've been incredibly fortunate in my career to have spanned quite a large chunk of the pharma value chain. I don't do manufacturing. Nobody asked me to do manufacturing. I don't know anything about it. And I'm quite happy to put my hands up and say not my thing at all. But I've done research. I've done clinical development, large chunks of all of it. And I've sat within a commercial organization and I've worked on commercial teams, so I have the ability to kind of go between those three big chunks. And I enjoy each of them without a shadow of a doubt. I think where the massive value is where they all link up. So I was having these conversations with people and talking about, What my principles were and my thoughts were and my experiences were, and I was getting the same message every time. It was, this is fantastic. Like, yes, a hundred percent. We need your skillset, we need your background. We really want you. We just have no idea where to put you. And I said, what do you mean you had no idea where to put you? Well, you know, you have so many skills that we just don't know what area to put you into. And I thought, yeah, this is the big problem. I don't really wanna be in a box anymore. I just So you don't fit in a box. I don't fit in a box. And I've spent 17 years in the pharma industry squashing myself into that box and going, this is the only thing that makes me palatable is if I am willing to shrink myself down into very defined role and be in a box. And I just, that was a massive realization. And so I'd given myself these three months, and in the middle of January I had a conversation with a tech company that I had just been chatting backwards and forwards with. And I'd become friendly with the ceo and they were quite big in financial data security. And he had been at a couple of pharma conferences and we'd gone out for dinner and stuff and we'd chatted and I really like him. He's a really lovely guy and he's really passionate about data security and data privacy and how you. Used data to, to its fullest whilst protecting the data. So we'd been chatting around and he was really keen to get the company into healthcare and pharma industry. And he said would you consider coming, doing a project for us? A couple of months, three months, do a project, we'll pay you to have a look at our product to make suggestions about how that might be fitting into pharma and might be useful. And I said, yeah, that sounds fine. That sounds fun. And then suddenly I had five clients and I didn't know why I went from, I'll do this as a favor to a friend and because I like their product as well to having clients. Going across the spectrum from data security to data acquisition for synthetic control, alarms of clinical trials to genomics, testing for companion diagnostics to digital therapeutics company, to a an accelerator a government sponsored innovation accelerator. Wow. And suddenly I was like, oh, okay. I don't have to fit into a box right now because I can do all of the things that I like and I'm fulfilled in each of these individual companies, and that's okay right now. Yeah. That's, that is where I'm stretched. I'm learning, which is super important to me. I'm challenged, which is also incredibly important to me. And I'm listened to, which I really like, because what I find in pharma is if you voice an opinion on something that is not within your job description, even if you have. The background in it. It's a little bit like, not for you. This is not what you're brought in to talk about. You're brought in to talk about this is what we've employed you to talk about. So being able to actually have people go oh, right, okay. That's really useful information. Was a massive confidence boost in a way. It was a real validation of, okay, I'm not insane. I do actually vaguely know what I'm talking about in all of these different areas. And so it was it's fun. It's a lot of fun. It was completely accidental. Yeah. Whether it lasts forever and ever, I don't know. Probably not. But it was it's something that, that gives me a lot of enjoyment at the moment. I was gonna

Liv: 00:22:56

say, it's working

Caoimhe: 00:22:56

for you now. Yeah. So that's all that matters really. Yeah. Isn't it? And I get to work with, well, I work with a lot of startups and I love startups because startups are shiny. Yeah. Startups are shiny and new and they still believe they can change the world. Yeah. Cynicism hasn't been beaten in the startups yet, and I love it because it's such a real refreshing moment of the world is, you know, the world is, everything is possible. Yeah. And I get completely swept up in that. And the energy you get out of working with startups and scale-ups is just incredible and such a contrast

Liv: 00:23:28

from Oh, yeah. The big pharma world. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Totally. So at the end of last year you were listed by Intelligent Health ai Yeah. As one of their top innovators for 2022. Tell me a little about that.

Caoimhe: 00:23:46

Well, I mean, I know about as much about it as you do. You know, like, like I said, I I presented, or I did a lot of presenting at conferences last year. And because I was in the position at that stage that I was really passionate about moving forward and moving healthcare forward. And I'm, believe it or not, you know, cuz this will come as a complete utter shock to you. I'm quite open with my opinions and I voice them. I know. You would never know. I'm so good at hiding it. I know. But you know, I'm I quite open with my opinions and I I will stand up and say what I think is right. What I think is moving forward. I do have, my favorite slide at the start of every single one of my presentations is a disclaimer slide, which says, I am not here representing anybody I work for, or any academic institution that I'm affiliated with. And all of these opinions are my own. And my final line on my slide is, and I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time when I've learned something new because I think it's super important because everything within the field that we work in, everything is it's so new and everything is changing at all times, that you can't afford to have a fixed mindset. You can't afford to say, this is how I know it. This is the way it's gonna be forever. I'm not gonna deviate away from this. You need to go in with a constant. Evolution of this is gonna change. It's gonna change. I need to be available. I need to learn from it because I need to give the best that I can for everything. So, yeah. And I'm not afraid to be wrong. I don't mind being wrong. Sorry. This is deviated from an intelligent health. That's why I asked. But basically I was doing a lot of presentation last year. That's where I came back to. And I was obviously giving my opinion an awful lot. And what I have to say, and I'm gonna be a little bit controversial here, and I do apologize for the people on these lists. I was having, it was in December of last year that I was named and I was having dinner with two friends of mine. And we were laughing because I think the day before the Forbes 40 under 40 list had been released. And somebody had been put on it and we were like, We know that person and they don't really know what they're doing. And that's a really interesting thing. And then there was the whole discussion about, oh, these lists don't really mean anything. A lot of the lists are, you apply for them. Yeah. And you self nominated or Yes. Or you pay for them as well. So we were having this, we were laughing, and literally the next day I had a notification on my phone from LinkedIn and it was Ping, you know, you've been tagged in this LinkedIn post. And I was like, oh, well post, have, I've been tagged in by Intelligent Health. And I clicked on it and it was like, top 55 list. And I screenshotted it and I sent it to the boys and I said, I swear I didn't apply for this. I'm swear I had no idea this was happening. And it was just, it was so funny because it was the day after we'd had that exact conversation. So I have to say I was incredibly flattered. If you look at the list on it. There are some incredible people on it. Would I have necessarily put myself amongst those? I wouldn't have even considered or thought about it, but I'm incredibly. Incredibly flattered to have been considered amongst that list. Just for being, for standing up and saying whatever was in my head of the day at the time. Okay.

Liv: 00:27:04

Well, let's talk more about what's in your head on the topic of AI then, because we are in this huge period of change. Yeah. Massive disruption from the generative AI coming in at the end of last year. Open, open ai. Where do you, what are your opinions that you stood up and shared, around AI and how it can benefit pharma or perhaps the areas that we need to watch out for. What are your thoughts?

Caoimhe: 00:27:30

Even more interesting is I would not classify myself as an AI specialist. I don't, I, I don't proclaim to know that I know how data can be leveraged to solve a problem. I don't know how it does it, but I know that it can be leveraged. I know I can identify the problem, I can identify what I want the solution to look like. I'm not necessarily the one that connects the problem to the solution via the AI or the, anything within that space. So I fully put my hands up and say, there are people out there that are bigger, better, and smarter than I am. When it comes to ai, I think the opinion that I have had about AI for a long time is that, first of all, it's a tool. It's an incredibly valuable tool if it's used right, but most importantly, AI is only as good as the data that goes into it. Yeah. And so for me, we can talk an awful lot about the sexy stuff, and you can throw out ai, machine learning, you know, big data, blah, blah, blah. You can, all of the buzzwords that, to be frank, pharma, love to throw around, love to throw around. But structurally, the data architecture, the data governance, the data quality and the amount of data points that you have available to generate the outcome of the, all of the AI you're using is equally valuable, but it's not as sexy. So some of the challenges that I've seen and faced in the past and I do whenever I talk to startups and things, and they're trying to push these incredible solutions and this is amazing. And I'm like yeah. Whoa. Let's dial it back a little bit. You don't want to essentially sync yourself and your credibility because at the end of the day, you are building models that people are gonna make decisions of. And within healthcare, you're building models that are go, people are gonna make either diagnos, diagnostic decisions, prognostic decisions. You're affecting people's lives and their treatment off of the algorithms and the products you build. And that's fantastic, as long as they've been trained correctly, that there's enough data that it is actually statistically significant. And so start with that. Start with your data and the value in that and the quality that comes out of that. The AI is the sexiness on the top. And it can do an ama, it can do amazing things, but rubbish in equals rubbish out. Yeah. And that's the important thing as well, that we tend to overlook. Yeah,

Liv: 00:30:06

I would completely agree with that So where do you think then, and I suppose in your role now as an advisor when you're speaking to companies particularly in pharma and life sciences, where do you think the industry needs to focus on over the coming years? What do you think the priorities should be to get to the the vision that you hold in terms of that preventative healthcare? Yeah,

Caoimhe: 00:30:31

I think so first of all, I think that it'll take more than just my thoughts on this. I think it'll take an awful lot more from people. I'll split it into two ways. I think society needs to change and I think business needs to change, and one will always follow the other, and depending on. Where the money goes is who, which goes first. So are we going to demand better as people and as a society, are we gonna demand better from our healthcare? Are we gonna demand the level of personalization that we have, personalization and digitalization that we have and have experienced from post, post the last number of years? You know, I use the example of I love crappy Hallmark movies. Hallmark Romcom Christmas movies on Netflix. I will watch every single one of them. And I know that, and I know I've watched every single one of them because my algorithm on Netflix shows me all the ones that I will want to watch. And you know what? I watch them and it is makes me very happy because I can switch off my brain and I can watch all of the formulaic, happy endings that are gonna happen. And everybody ends up having a lovely time and it's great. And I go away feeling a wee bit better because the world is lovely and nothing's challenged me in the hour and a half that I've sat down and actually relaxed for something now. Amazon and I have a very tumultuous relationship because they keep suggesting things for me and I keep buying them. So my bank account has fallen out with Amazon on numerous occasions and my house is full of bits of pieces of stuff, and I own more metal straws than any one single human should own. But yes, Amazon keeps suggesting products that I might like. And you know what? Amazon is quite right. They are very good at that. Very good at that. But why are we not demanding that from our healthcare? Yeah. And wow, this is for me, is there's, there're gonna be two inflection points is either the world is gonna turn around, stand up and say, stop dictating to me what healthcare looks like. Stop dictating to me what my treatment plan or pathway should be. This is what I want. Pharma talk an awful good game on patient centricity and patient design, drug development, and patient centered, all of that jazz. But at the end of the day, are they asking them to develop the drug that is going to actually fix the problem with the patient? Or are they asking the patient to essentially give them the validation about bits of the drug pathway that they can still develop the same drug, but say, but we talk to patients and patients want this. And you know, that's gotta change. That's really gotta change. And I had a great conversation actually on Monday. I was in Basil and I was chatting to a Swiss hospital administrator and he was talking about how they're trying to discourage more specialization. So they're trying to get more in his general practice cuz specialization becomes within the hospital system becomes quite expensive and they're always booked up and things like that. And he said, you know, we're really trying to look at. How we change that around and look at how we, we make sure that we are delivering what patients need and and not just providing solutions to people because we're finding that sometimes the solutions we provide actually make the patients' condition worse. And I said, well, I can understand that. And he said, but how can you understand that? You know, why does that make any sense? We fixed something, we've cured it. And I said, look, I'm blind in my right eye and I have been since birth. Everything is 2d. It would completely decimate my life if I suddenly have sight in my right eye. Because I wouldn't know how my depth perception would be off. Everything would change. My view of the world would change and I'm 37, it takes a long time to unlearn all of the things that I have learned Yeah. At that stage. So my coping mechanisms would be completely off the chart and all over the place. What is important to me is not regaining or getting the sight in my right eye. What is important to me is preventing the loss in my left eye. Yeah. That's important to me. Not developing a cure or a treatment for my current vision, but preventing that changing. And so that's where we need to start looking at is that push. Where does that initial push come from? Where pharma and drug development and therapeutic, I'm gonna say therapeutic development, starts to shift towards. What is the thing that the patient really wants and needs? And how do we look at, instead of desperately trying to fix something, like I've said, how do we make sure that the standard of life and condition that the patient is used to, likes and wants is maintained? And if the money, if the business models come into place where that is actually financially viable to do, and whether it is pushed from regulators, whether it is pushed from the government, whether it is pushed from the consumers. I'm gonna say something that a lot of people hate me saying We need to consumerize healthcare, and I don't mean in the way that. It's consumerized like apple or consumerized, like Google or consumerized. Like you, you go to a supermarket and you buy whatever you want. It's not what I mean about consumerization. We need to treat patients as consumers, as the end users. Because at the moment, that's not what healthcare with pharma does. Pharma's end users are the prescribers, and that's the you're taking away the par and the ownership from the end users. And the end users are the patients. So they're the ones that actually have to take the medication that is designed for them, take the therapeutics that are designed for them, so they should have a say and in what. What is developed for them, they should have a say in how that makes them feel, how they're affected by it. We need to consumerize health and treat the patients as having the par to determine what is their view of health and determine how they want to live their life. Yeah,

Liv: 00:36:49

it's almost like, so pharma is always set up to be b2b, isn't it? Yeah. And it's B2C really. Yeah. When you talk about like that, it is it's actually you're focusing on an individual, not an organization. Yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense. So you are a sports fanatic, tell me a little bit about that and more importantly, tell me how on earth you balance that in your life.

Caoimhe: 00:37:12

Okay, so that's super, I'll start with the second part of it. Currently, I don't balance it. It's the age old question of, you know, how do you develop a work-life balance? And people ask me, what is my work-life balance? And I say, yes, I have a work life that, and then I stop. And like I said earlier on, that need, that massively needs to change. And I am a believer of that myself. I'm really trying to put in place that And I'm gonna say, I'm gonna commit to something and I'm gonna commit to it on a recording. Yes. So I can't go back on it. And I'm going to, I'm really gonna live to regret this, but I'm gonna have to do it. I'll get to that in a second. But yeah I'm really trying to commit to living rather than existing. And living in the moment, I am the nightmare when it comes to planning things. I plan everything down to the N degree. I have spreadsheets. I have more spreadsheets than anyone human in the world should ever have. And I love spreadsheets. And I mean, to the extent where I keep a. Birthday and Christmas present spreadsheets and have done for years. Oh my God. I love that. And I add people to it. And during the year, I just go through and if I see something that I think someone might like, I put it on the spreadsheet. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh my God. And when I go places, I plan

Liv: 00:38:24

everything. I love this. Oh, it's not good though

Caoimhe: 00:38:27

because I shouldn't love it, but I didn't. Yeah. But what I noticed over the last, I was fine with it up until the last couple of years when I noticed that I wasn't enjoying the thing as I was doing it. I was busy going, yep, okay, come on. We need to go to the next thing. Because it's planned into the schedule that we do the next thing at the next time. We're running behind, I was running everything like project meetings. Like I was going on holiday with people going, okay, come on next. Move. Yes, let's go. Dinner's booked at 7, 6 53. Come on, it's a seven minute walk. Let's go. So, and I just, I wasn't enjoying where I was at the moment at the at in the moment. And so that's something that. I'm working to try and fix I to do that I'm doing things like I've just got the most incredible new apartment. So I move house next month. Why? I thought that was a good idea in the middle of starting up an independent consultancy company. I don't know, but I decided that was what I was gonna do and I've got a beautiful new apartment. I'm really excited to get in. It's going to, it's just gonna make me, it's gonna make my life better and it's gonna be fun and quirky and I'm gonna have plenty of space for guests. I'm gonna have plenty of space for an office that I can work in comfortably. And not that I'm ever in, that's cuz I'm traveling all the time. But, you know, I'll build a cat corner for the cat. And it'll be fine and I'll, but I'll feel like a home. I'll feel like I've really settled in a home as opposed to a house. Cause I live in houses. And I think for the last number of years I've really lived in houses. I've existed in houses as opposed to living in a home. So I'm building my own home, a little nest of comfort and happiness, and I'm gonna buy myself a pink smeg fridge as my, oh my God, ward. Oh, I'm so excited. So excited. So, yeah, so that's essentially my answer to that. I don't have a work life balance at the moment, but I'm working on it with regards to sport, and this is where I'm gonna commit to something. I was just gonna

Liv: 00:40:19

say, what are you gonna commit to? I'm gonna

Caoimhe: 00:40:20

commit to something I've played sport. I I love sport. I like doing it because I'm highly competitive. I am highly competitive. For a very long time, we weren't allowed to play board games as children because it always ended. Were too competitive and always ended in awry. So I didn't really, so I didn't really grow up and we didn't play cards. Like, and when I dive on the dive boat, in between dives, you tend to play cards. I knew Snap and that was pretty much the end of my card knowledge. And I've had to be taught card games and I am. Worst card player. Cause I get I both love and hate rules and I enforce them like nobody's business. I'm like, no, you've cheated. No, it's, you're not allowed it. No. So I'm super competitive, hyper competitive. So I did, I played a lot of sport as a kid because I could be competitive and I played sport and I played rugby. I played rugby at a time in Northern Ireland where rugby for girls was only just taking off. And I was a complete utter enforcer on the pitch. So I, I. I'm tall and I'm broad and I'm very strong and I, running into me was like running into a brick wall and I was, when I started running, I'm actually, at the time, I'm, I was deceptively quick. Nobody really thought when I started to tr that it was actually gonna go anywhere at speed. But I'm deceptively quick and and I'm like a freight train. I'm completely not a runaway freight train. I'm very difficult to stop on a rugby pitch, haven't played rugby in a number of years cuz I, I ended up being quite badly injured and broke my ankle quite badly. But I just loved sport. I loved being part of a team. I loved, I loved being good at something. I think that was really I excelled at sports, so I enjoyed it. Yeah. And yeah, so I, it was such a serious part of my identity for a very long time as well, that when and I'd made a commitment, so I. Played rugby. I was involved in athletics. I, I competed an awful lot and I absolutely loved it. And then I, after I broke my ankle, I was sent by my physio at the time to do CrossFit. And he said to me, normally I would not send you to do CrossFit. I don't agree with CrossFit. CrossFit's not good, CrossFit bad, but it's very bad for people who are injured. And it's very bad for people who are injured and hyper competitive. But I don't trust you on your own to not do something stupid cuz you'll get bored. And my physio knew me very well and he said, I'm sending you to CrossFit in Cambridge. At that stage I was living in Cambridge. I'm handing you CrossFit because my brother works there and my best friend owns it. And I have warned them about you, Uhhuh. And I have to say he really did warn them because they watched me like a hawk. I was not allowed to do anything that wasn't specifically prescribed by him. But again, I loved it because, I was really strong. Now could I do a pull up? No. Could I? Did I want to do a burpee? No. Oh my God, no. Did I have any interest in ever doing a muscle up? Not even slightly. No. Weightlifting excelled at it immediately. Yeah, I'm strong. So it, to me that was like fun. Great. I'm good at this. Yeah. So I'm topping the leaderboard, which means it's seriously motivating for me. And so I really got into the weightlifting side of things and I started to train quite seriously about it. And I thought, cuz I like to have a goal. I thought, well, not many weightlifters in Northern Ireland. There are now, there's a much, much bigger weightlifting community in Northern Ireland. There were than there were at that stage. And I thought, oh, I can maybe train for the Commonwealth Games, see if I can try and qualify for the Commonwealth Games. And so I did until Covid hit and then I was trapped inside my apartment working 17 hour days. And I just thought, look, I love this, but even I have to admit that I could continue to try and force this through, but it's just not gonna work. I can't commit to that level of training. And so I kind of had to give up on that. But my big commitment now, cuz I always have a goal and I know you're watching me with, I cannot wait for this very excited in my lunacy. I have decided, I decided this about two years ago and I have done absolutely nothing towards it as yet. Right. But I have decided that before my 40th birthday, I would like to swim the channel. Oh my God. Amazing. Yeah. So I've, yeah. I like

Liv: 00:44:34

You need to firm this up now. No, you need to commit to it. Yeah, you do. Yeah. Do you need to commit to it? Yeah. So, cause you just said you'd like to, I'd like to. I, oh, I'm gonna firm you up. Yeah, you are. You're

Caoimhe: 00:44:45

gonna, you're gonna meet me. Do it. You're gonna commit to it. Yeah. I, it gives me three years. It does. To swim the channel. Yeah. So you're gonna do that? Yes.

Liv: 00:44:53

You are gonna swim the channel? Yes. By what year then? Right away. 2025. 2025? Yeah. Okay. So it's really just two and a half,

Caoimhe: 00:45:01

3, 1, 3, 2 and a half? Yes. Okay. Yeah. So, okay. Or swim it in my 40th year, which can be up to 2025. Okay. To 2026. Well,

Liv: 00:45:10

if you get sponsorship or anything like that or want any support on that, I am here for this now because you have put your, you have laid it down on this show, so I will support

Caoimhe: 00:45:21

you however you need, and anybody who wants to sponsor me and laugh at an ex rugby player who should not be swimming the channel, swim in the channel, please feel free to do so. I will gladly set up some form of Instagram page of we'll do mockery of myself. Yep.

Liv: 00:45:36

And even if I have to add it to the show notes retrospectively, we will do that. Now, if you would like to see,

Caoimhe: 00:45:44

yeah, if you would like to see this really not work very well, but go for it. Tune in. Tune in. But please pay me lots of money. Yeah. It'll definitely need to be for a charity. And I think it's quite a, it's quite a financial endeavor to actually swim the channel because I did a bit of looking into it originally. And you have to do things like hire safety crews and boats and things like that to follow you. Wow. So you know, you don't drown or be hit by a tanker. Yeah. Those are two very important things

Liv: 00:46:13

to avoid. Yeah. Yeah. Don't get hit by a tanker. No, it's not

Caoimhe: 00:46:17

worth that. Definitely wouldn't, I definitely wouldn't reach France by that stage. So,

Liv: 00:46:21

so how are you gonna ba fit that into your life now then do, when we're talking about, let's go back to work life balance. Yeah. Yeah.

Caoimhe: 00:46:30

How are you gonna make that work? Yeah, that's, it's another commitment I have to make. You're gonna need an Excel spreadsheet. Oh. There's a hundred percent gonna be an Excel spreadsheet somewhere. The new apartment that I have got is a three minute cycle away from an Olympic-sized swimming pool. Nice. So I think I am going to need to spend an awful lot of time in the Olympic swim size swimming pool. Do you know what's terrifying and what's hideous? And you're gonna love this. I'm gonna have to swim in lakes. Oh. Oh, no. Oh, you are? Yes. I am gonna have to swim in lakes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah, you are. I am. Am There's no getting away from that. No. No. And I'm gonna have to, and I, cuz I am a nightmare in that I am very proficient in the breast stroke, but and I'm very good at 50 meters front crawl. Because it, I can't breathe, but I can get 50 meters without having to breathe. So I can get to the other end of the pool, but then I'm like, now I'm dead. So I'm going to need to get, so anybody out there who knows a good swimming coach that could teach me to front crawl Okay. For endurance swimming. Get in touch. Get in touch. I will take any tips. Yes. I'll take any advice from anybody. Preferably advice that is useful. That would be good. Not just don't do it. Don't, I mean, you can give me that advice, but I'm pigheaded enough to go, well, that's

Liv: 00:47:45

just made me wanna do it. Well, I've said,

Caoimhe: 00:47:47

yeah. So any advice that anybody can give on that? I think, yeah. It's well received. Yes. Okay. Well you are being held to that now. You know that, don't you? Fantastic. Yeah. Okay. Just

Liv: 00:47:56

so you're aware of that. Okay. Okay. So when we first spoke, you told me that you were the quiet kid when you were in school, or you were quite reserved in school. Is

Caoimhe: 00:48:07

that right? I think I was quite, no, I, I think I was the daydreamer. I think that's what I, I said I spent a lot of time in my own head at school. I would love to know. I don't really I'm not super close to the people I went to school with any longer. I'm much closer to people I went to university with. Because by that stage I kind of felt a little bit more me. Yeah. I can't say I loved school very much. I loved the academic side of it. I really loved the learning side of it. I didn't necessarily love the environment that I was in the politics of. I know politics, then I went into pharma. Yeah. Cause that has less politics. I don't know. I just, I didn't love school. You know, people, some people say, you know, school days is the best days of your life. Nah, not for me. Thanks very much. I'm good. I'd rather never go anywhere near it, ever again. So I don't know what other people's perception of me was at school, but my self perception at school was that I spent a lot of time in my head And I kind of just I wouldn't have said I was popular. I wouldn't have said I was unpopular. I just kind of drifted between kind of different friend groups. Again, no box. Yeah. You know, I drifted between the academic crowd and the sports crowd and I spent a, like I was said earlier on, I was in school choir, I was involved in school musicals quite a lot. So I kind of drifted between all types of different groups within school and yeah, I probably didn't, I don't think I came into myself. I don't think I came into knowing and myself as a human being and being comfortable in my own skin until I was probably in my early thirties anyway. So I think my self perception of me at school was probably that I wasn't massively happy and I just didn't really. Want to be there an awful lot of the time. And so I daydreamed a lot. Because I could escape inside my own head and think about things. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. Yep.

Liv: 00:50:04

Do you still, are you still involved with singing now? Do you do any, are you in a choir or anything? My mother would

Caoimhe: 00:50:09

love to say that I do an awful lot more because she likes to remind me that they spent a fortune on singing lessons for me. I do still sing. Yes. I, part of my work life balance Yeah. Is to find a choir in Germany that I can join. When I lived in Basil, I lived in Basil for about seven years. I was very involved in the Basel English Theater Group, which is a fantastic group. And we did rent and I was involved in that. And we got involved in the Panto Society as well. Oh my God. Amazing. So, and I loved Panto because it was just completely off the wall. Yeah. And we had a couple of years we were, had a really good musical director and who was willing to do things a little bit, so a little bit off the wall. And there was another guy there at the time actually Anthony who's he's really good at a talent acquisition for a new nutrition company. But at that stage, he was doing He, he took some time off to go and do a master's in musical theater in London. And so he and I were kind of batting backwards and forwards what we could potentially do. That was fun. And we ended up doing, he played the Panto Dam and we ended up doing the a song from Spam alo amazing. In, in the break while they were, you know, changing the scenery behind the curtain and things like that. And including he, we got very over enthusiastic at one stage and he spun me off the stage and I ended up like, falling into the orchestra pit. But yeah, I haven't done it. I haven't had a chance or kind of done it since I lived in Basil. And I'd really like to do it again because it's, I think it's another facet of me that kind of needs to be exercised, otherwise it gets a bit, yeah, get itchy. So my per neighbors in my current apartment have heard me saying upper, at the top of my lungs. 11:00 AM in the morning or 8:00 PM at night. And I have to say bless German engineering that the insulation is very good in German apartments. So we just have to see how good the insulation is in the new apartment. Oh, amazing. Yeah, it's gross. Fingers crossed I don't make enemies in the new

Liv: 00:52:15

apartment. So if you could then go back, well, so there's a couple of questions now that I've got to ask you before we wrap up and they're very much in line with what we were just talking about. So if you were to go back to the girl in high school Yeah. Before, when as you say, you weren't really who you want, who you ended up to be, what advice would you go back and give yourself if you could, knowing

Caoimhe: 00:52:36

everything you now know? I think what I would probably say is stop beating yourself up. I am very self hypercritical. Self critical. Yep. I would probably say to her to, you know what, you are focusing on things and freaking out about things and having anxiety and stressing yourself out about things that other people haven't actually a, noticed or B cared about or c remembered. So stop beating yourself up about things. You know, if you think you've done something really bad, go and speak to the person. Have the guts to go inside of the person. I'm really sorry. I think I hurt you or I think I screwed up, or, I don't really know. And instead of being defensive or just stressing about it, just address it. I think my, the biggest learning I have is that if you just nip it in the bud before you end up stressing about it, it's a much, much healthier way of dealing with things. Cuz they may turn around and be like, actually no, I have no idea. I have no idea what you're talking about. Or, oh, that, oh, that was a throwaway comment. I didn't even pay attention. Or I didn't take it to heart. Yeah. But I think I, I probably would say nip it in the bud. Don't stress about things and be open to apologize. Yeah. I think that's super important. Just say, look, I'm really sorry, I didn't mean it, it doesn't excuse it, but I'll do my best to be better. Other than that, I probably wouldn't. I. I would love to say, you know, don't let yourself be put into a box or, I think the perception, I felt that the perception of me in school or what I self perceived that other people may have perceived about me kind of wasn't who I was. I would love to say don't put yourself in a box and don't feel that way. But at the end of the day, you need to learn those lessons. Yeah. You need to learn your own boundaries. You need to learn your own principles, your own integrity. And I don't think I could have done that, and I don't think I would be who I am now without having learned all that. Yeah. Yeah.

Liv: 00:54:34

No, fair enough. So the final question yes. I have for you is about the movie Sliding Doors. Yes. Now, I know you said you haven't seen it, which actually now having spoken to you about your love for romcom movies, I said, no, I can't believe you're gonna have

Caoimhe: 00:54:50

not. But are they Hallmark or made by the Canadian Film Board? Because I'm very, very niche in my crappy romcom movies that I enjoy to watch. Fair enough. Yeah. I have no idea in all on the, no, I

Liv: 00:55:02

don't. Okay. So very quick overview of the movie Gwyneth Paltrow it's probably early nineties, this movie. She goes out one day to work as she does every day. Nine to five goes to get on the train. She's running a little bit late. I can't remember why, to be honest with I really should revisit the movie. But anyway and I watch it. I just let you know what

Caoimhe: 00:55:23

Happens, yeah. To tell me. I'll

Liv: 00:55:24

probably even get it all wrong when I tell people what the whole premise of the movie is. This totally wrong. So she goes to get the train. She misses the train, and the doors slide across in front of her. She then turns around and goes home and finds her husband's been cheating on her and her whole life, she ends up getting divorced and da. So she lives her life entirely differently to the one she would've lived, had those doors not closed on her at that time. So the whole point is around pivotal moments in your life, and are there any that stand out to you where you sometimes think I could have lived an entirely different life and I've gone a totally different route?

Caoimhe: 00:56:02

I think probably I would say there are probably two big ones for me. The first one was moving from Belfast to Switzerland. Yeah. At the end of my undergraduate degree. I think if I had stayed in Belfast, my trajectory would've been completely different. Massively different. I would've been a completely different person. I probably would've had a smaller outlook on life. And I don't mean a more small-minded, I just mean a more geographically localized outlook on life. I probably Northern Ireland at that stage, you had and a couple of my cousins refer to me as Chandler Bing, cuz they haven't no clue what I do. But Northern Ireland at that stage, I remember when we did careers at school and they were looking at what you should be doing, and it was basically doctor, dentist, nurse, teacher, lawyer, civil servant. Anything outside of that didn't exist as a career. That was not a thing. So to have done, gone down the pathway that I had probably would've just been. Just completely bizarre. It just I know it was bizarre. It just wasn't the norm. And I know an awful lot of people within my kind of generation of Northern Ireland have done some really very cool, weird and wacky things. And I'm incredibly proud of everybody who did the thing that made them happy and didn't necessarily worry. And don't get me wrong, the people who went doctor, dentist, nurse teacher civil, servant lawyer, brilliant. Yeah. Fantastic. If that is what they want to do. And they exactly lived their life in exactly what they wanted, you know, hats off to you. Yeah. Fantastic. I do not in any way mean to belittle those choices at all. It's just that to come from a very Conservative culture in Northern Ireland and one that was not necessarily known for breaking out, doing weird and crazy things. It makes me incredibly happy to see people from Northern Ireland be represented as boundary breakers or as really pushing the boundaries of things. And there's a huge amount going on in health tech in Northern Ireland at the moment, which is very exciting to see. And I get so proud because Northern Ireland's an incredible place and it's it breeds a type of person that is very singular and pretty special to be honest. And there's a sense of humor there that you don't find anywhere else in the world. And I'm very proud to be from Northern Ireland. I'm from Belfast and I'm very proud of the people who are doing things on a world stage because it's such a tiny place as well. Yeah. To see people go out and do things on a world stage that are. Incredible. It's, it really does make me incredibly proud to be Northern Irish. But I think that if I'd have stayed there at the time I would've a very different, they're very different. I probably would've ended up married, there probably would've been children. Yeah. Which is to me now super alien. Like it's a super alien concept because I like children, but I couldn't eat a whole one. Yeah. And and they're fine with me, but I like them when they look like a potato because they don't really do anything. And I like them when you can start to rationalize with them. Yeah. It's the in between bit. It's the in between bit when they're sticky and noisy. No, I'm good. Thanks. I'm totally good. Thanks. I know. So I think that would've been a very different life for me if I'd stayed there. So that was kind of inflection point number one. And inflection point number two I think is this year, and I think in five, 10 years I'll be able to tell you what that meant in my life and what I did and how it was different. Yeah. But I think that to, to basically walk away, and don't get me wrong, I. I really enjoy being independent. It's great at the moment, but are days when I'm busy going, oh, I'm gonna live under a bridge cause nobody's gonna pay me. You know yourself, you know, you know yourself, that you suddenly go, oh it's really scary. It's really scary, super scary. So I, at the moment, I'm still living in the day-today. Huh? Bridge. Huh? No bridge. Huh? Bridge. No bridge. It's okay. So I think, you know, in five years time when I can look back on it with a little bit of distance and a little bit of perspective, I'll be able to say, okay, no. Right now I see what an impact that made on my life. So those are, I would say probably the two big, yeah. Inflection

Liv: 01:00:16

points. So the first thing I would say is, I think the Northern Irish thing is why we are in the same room rather than over the phone, because all my dad's family is all from Northern Ireland. My grandma, who I loved pieces Northern Irish. So yeah, I am totally with you in terms of the type of people, the Northern Ireland breeds. The other one as I, I like to think that in about five years time you'll be saying that your pivotal moment was doing this podcast when you realized that you had to then swim the channel. Oh, no. Had

Caoimhe: 01:00:44

forgotten about that already. Oh yeah. No. Short attentions span. Forgotten that one bit already. Right. But I

Liv: 01:00:52

think that brings us to the end of the of the episode. Cool. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been incredible to meet you in person. I cannot wait to hear about you swimming

Caoimhe: 01:01:05

the channel. It's a lot of pressure. I know I've done that to myself. You totally have. Yeah.

Liv: 01:01:11

And I've just gone right

Caoimhe: 01:01:12

in there, haven't I? Yeah. You're not gonna forget that time. Never

Liv: 01:01:14

will to. No. It's my claim today. Today. Win the podcast. I'm taking it. No, seriously. Thank you so

Caoimhe: 01:01:21

much. Thank you very much for having me. It was a real pleasure to chat. And yeah I'm really very appreciative to be considered amongst some of the women that you have interviewed previously. There's some incredible people on that list.

Liv: 01:01:32

It's been an absolute pleasure to have you, and let's go do some karaoke. And that is it for another episode. Thank you so much for listening. Don't forget, you can now also join this girl Cam as a member where you'll get invited to join recording sessions, regular mentions on

Caoimhe: 01:01:47

the show,

Liv: 01:01:47

and discounted or free tickets to some live events. To find out more, head to patreon.com. This girl cam, finally, go to this girl come.com to subscribe to the show and get notified first about every new episode. You can also find every interview I've done in print and find out who my guest is for the following week. You can follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. All under this girl Cam. Thanks again everyone.

Caoimhe: 01:02:10

Bye for now.