This Girl KAM with Caoimhe Vallely-Gilroy

In this episode of This Girl KAM, host Liv Nixon interviews Caoimhe Vallely-Gilroy, an independent advisor to pharma and life science companies. Caoimhe talks about her passion for patients’ rights and her focus on making life better for patients and enabling a healthier population. She also discusses her background, living abroad for almost 17 years, and accidentally falling into the pharma industry. This is a first for Liv, with the episode being recorded in person in an actual recording studio!

[00:01:25] Accidental career in pharma.

[00:03:39] Healthcare industry advancements.

[00:07:24] Scuba diving fears.

[00:11:05] Healthcare and preventative medicine.

[00:14:55] Personalised medicine and healthcare.

[00:19:55] Not fitting into a box.

[00:23:38] Top innovator in healthcare.

[00:28:19] AI is only as good.

[00:30:57] Personalisation in healthcare.

[00:35:47] Consumerising healthcare.

[00:38:29] Overplanning

[00:44:27] Swimming the English Channel.

[00:50:06] Singing and Musical Theatre.

[00:54:39] “Sliding Doors”

[00:56:03] Moving away from Belfast.

[00:59:44] Pivotal moments in life.

Transcript
Caoimhe:

Hello.

Caoimhe:

Welcome to this girl.

Liv:

Come where we chat to wonderful women doing fabulous things in pharma.

Liv:

I'm Liv Nixon, and today I'm talking to Kiva Vallee Gilroy.

Liv:

Previously Global Head of Digital Health and Therapeutics for Merck,

Liv:

and now an independent advisor to pharma and life science companies.

Liv:

Kiva is a passionate advocate for patients rights, a self-proclaimed

Liv:

science nerd, and data enthusiast.

Liv:

Kiva focuses her work on how she can make life better for patients

Liv:

and enable a healthier population.

Liv:

It took just a couple of minutes chatting on the phone with Kiva to know this was

Liv:

an interview I wanted to do in person.

Liv:

So here we are.

Liv:

Kiva has flown over from her home in Germany.

Liv:

I've jumped on a train down to London, and here we are, ready to do this.

Liv:

So let's get going.

Liv:

Hello, Kiva.

Liv:

Welcome to the show.

Liv:

Hi, Liv.

Liv:

Thanks very much for having me.

Liv:

You are very welcome.

Liv:

This is a complete first for both of us, as we were just saying.

Liv:

So I've never been in an actual real life recording studio before,

Liv:

and I don't think you have either,

Caoimhe:

have you?

Caoimhe:

Yes, but a very long time ago and as part of a school choir.

Caoimhe:

Okay.

Caoimhe:

Really not part of this.

Caoimhe:

It's not same?

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

Not quite the same, no.

Liv:

Okay.

Liv:

So to kick us off, Kiva, could you please tell us a little bit

Liv:

about yourself and what you do?

Caoimhe:

So, really interesting question cuz I never quite know how to answer that.

Caoimhe:

So just a little bit about me.

Caoimhe:

I'm from Northern Ireland originally but I've lived abroad for almost 17 years now.

Caoimhe:

I've spent that entire time primarily in the life science and pharma industry.

Caoimhe:

I accidentally fell into pharma to be perfectly honest with you.

Caoimhe:

I didn't mean to do it.

Caoimhe:

It just kind of, Got me on the way past, and I thought, oh yeah,

Caoimhe:

okay, I'll have a go at that.

Caoimhe:

But I moved, I left Belfast after I finished my undergraduate

Caoimhe:

degree in genetics, and I moved to Basil in Switzerland to take up a

Caoimhe:

postgraduate research fellowship at the Friedrich Me Institute.

Caoimhe:

And essentially I spent an entire year in a lab realizing that I love

Caoimhe:

science and I don't love the lab.

Caoimhe:

And that's really where I thought, no I, this is not really my thing.

Caoimhe:

And I was very lucky that I met a really cool Irish lady in Basel.

Caoimhe:

And I don't actually remember how I met her but I, she turned out she

Caoimhe:

was head of a a recruiting company.

Caoimhe:

And so she then ended up getting me into an interview with Fisher Clinical

Caoimhe:

Services and as a project manager and I.

Caoimhe:

Took on that role in the end, and that was pretty much how I

Caoimhe:

ended up in industry rather than in academia or in a lab setting.

Caoimhe:

So I went straight into the project management, clinical development side of

Caoimhe:

the life sciences and pharma industry.

Caoimhe:

And I haven't really looked back.

Caoimhe:

I think probably the best way to describe me is more of an opportunist, really.

Caoimhe:

I have very short attention span and I like to be kept entertained

Caoimhe:

and I get grumpy when I'm bored.

Caoimhe:

So I I'm really interested.

Caoimhe:

I lifelong learner.

Caoimhe:

I really can't stop learning and I love to, to read and to

Caoimhe:

learn more about what's going on.

Caoimhe:

So I've kind of just moved through.

Caoimhe:

The entire healthcare space into areas that really interest me.

Caoimhe:

So having gone from early stage research development and I'm talking

Caoimhe:

Polycom genes, body segmentation genes, right at the very early stuff of my

Caoimhe:

career in the early research which has still never come to the light of day.

Caoimhe:

So that's still, that still is a long time away from me into the clinic through to

Caoimhe:

the actual clinical development stuff.

Caoimhe:

So the clinical trials, the development of diagnostic tests and then in two digital

Caoimhe:

and data, which for me kind of culminated as a a real intersection of all of the

Caoimhe:

things that I really believe in that the healthcare industry should move to.

Caoimhe:

And that was kind of really why I moved away from pure operations of

Caoimhe:

clinical trials into, okay, we do that, but It's a super old process.

Caoimhe:

It's very well regulated.

Caoimhe:

It's very well no one, but it's not fit for purpose for what society needs.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And it's not fit for purpose, for the fact that technology and understanding

Caoimhe:

of disease has massively outpaced our treatments and are able to develop

Caoimhe:

and our approach to health in general.

Caoimhe:

And I mean, I think one of the big things that came out of Covid that.

Caoimhe:

I heard so many people say that it became too much of a buzzword for

Caoimhe:

me is the health is your wealth.

Caoimhe:

And to a certain extent that is a hundred percent correct, but

Caoimhe:

right now it's still a buzzword.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

It's talking when people say that, they talk about it in a, okay, you've been

Caoimhe:

fixed, so you were ill and now you've been fixed in, therefore it's back.

Caoimhe:

But to me it was, well, why be broken in the first place?

Caoimhe:

Why not start from the position of let's not let you get sick?

Caoimhe:

. First.

Caoimhe:

And so for me, all of the clinical development stuff, all of the digital

Caoimhe:

and data stuff is really leaning towards where I believe very wholeheartedly

Caoimhe:

that the healthcare industry need to go.

Caoimhe:

So that's kind of just me in from a work perspective in a nutshell.

Caoimhe:

Outside of work I mainly work.

Caoimhe:

That's probably where we are.

Caoimhe:

And I think, you know, people say, you know, if you.

Caoimhe:

If you get a job you love, you never work a day in your life.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Am I allowed to swear on this podcast?

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Well, I can always understand bullshit, not bullshit.

Caoimhe:

That's all I have to say to that one.

Caoimhe:

Or bollocks depending on my mood at the time, because essentially what

Caoimhe:

happens is you get a job that you love, you get passionate about it, and

Caoimhe:

you work all of the hours in the day.

Caoimhe:

So, it is really this doesn't count.

Caoimhe:

So yeah, I work an awful lot because I love what I do.

Caoimhe:

I am working very hard on changing that perspective.

Caoimhe:

I would like to move towards living and not just existing.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I have a cat who probably saved my sanity during Covid.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I live in Germany, so it was a very, I isolating experience to be

Caoimhe:

away from friends and found I have.

Caoimhe:

Friends in Germany, obviously, but to be away from family.

Caoimhe:

And I come from quite a large Irish family.

Caoimhe:

So we are tend to be in each other's business quite a lot.

Caoimhe:

And to have been away from that and to have had several Christmases

Caoimhe:

where my mother, who is the Christmas ferry you could have sworn that

Caoimhe:

the world had ended because we weren't having Christmas properly.

Caoimhe:

To be away from that was quite isolating.

Caoimhe:

So to have a ginger cat who has one brain cell and is an absolute idiot,

Caoimhe:

but very entertaining, probably saved my sanity, which means he is

Caoimhe:

far more spoiled than he should be.

Caoimhe:

. But I mean, it's a cat.

Caoimhe:

How badly can you spoil a cat?

Caoimhe:

He can what?

Caoimhe:

He's not gonna be grow.

Caoimhe:

He's not gonna grow up to be a dictator here.

Caoimhe:

Uh, he It's all good.

Caoimhe:

Yeah, and really that's kind of it.

Caoimhe:

I love to dive.

Caoimhe:

I'm scuba diver.

Caoimhe:

Oh, really?

Caoimhe:

I'm a recently qualified dive master, so I'm very proud of myself on that

Caoimhe:

one, which allows me to, to assistant teach and to, to basically, if I ever

Caoimhe:

decide to give up any form of life science and pharma, I can disappear

Caoimhe:

off to the Caribbean and take tourists on nice dive dive guide nice tour.

Caoimhe:

So that's essentially what I do mostly in my spare time.

Caoimhe:

And I took that up even though I didn't want to.

Caoimhe:

But a friend of mine.

Caoimhe:

Convinced me to learn to dive because they wanted to go on a boat trip in Indonesia,

Caoimhe:

live aboard dive trip in Indonesia.

Caoimhe:

And she said to me, if you go on it, then it makes our tickets cheaper.

Caoimhe:

And I said, I'm not sure how that works out for me cause I wasn't planning on

Caoimhe:

spending that money to start off with.

Caoimhe:

But I'm a bit of a sucker for boats.

Caoimhe:

I really enjoy being on a boat and so it was a dive boat.

Caoimhe:

It's a nice boat.

Caoimhe:

I went on the boat and I had to learn to dive before I went, so Oh,

Liv:

absolutely.

Liv:

Petrifies me.

Liv:

Oh, they're going under the, it's the, yeah, my husband was, did

Liv:

it all when he was traveling and there's a qualified paddy . Yeah.

Liv:

And and he goes, and I won't go with him.

Liv:

I'll stay, you know, when we're on holidays and stuff like that and I just,

Caoimhe:

I'm too scared.

Caoimhe:

That's, I honestly, if you would've seen me learning to dive, you would've gone.

Caoimhe:

That girl's never gone in the water.

Caoimhe:

I learned to dive in Germany, so I live in Germany and I learned

Caoimhe:

to dive in Germany and I live.

Caoimhe:

At that stage I lived in Frankfurt.

Caoimhe:

And as you can imagine, there's no sea near Frankfurt.

Caoimhe:

Bit far to go to do your open water qualifications.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Which you have to do outside of a swimming pool.

Caoimhe:

So in Germany you do them in a lake, right?

Caoimhe:

No, I don't like lakes.

Caoimhe:

No lakes are slimy.

Caoimhe:

And muddy and things touch in it that have been there for a long time.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I'm not a big fan of Lake, so I was not what you would I was

Caoimhe:

I said, I was very proficient.

Caoimhe:

I was the world's best technical instruction diver as a learner

Caoimhe:

because I knew everything in the book.

Caoimhe:

That wasn't a problem.

Caoimhe:

But you put me into the lake and I was having none of it.

Caoimhe:

I was out.

Caoimhe:

I something touched my foot, I was gone.

Caoimhe:

This was the end of it.

Caoimhe:

I was not doing this.

Caoimhe:

And I think if you'd watched me then to now, you would've been like, no,

Caoimhe:

there's no chance she's ever diving.

Caoimhe:

I'm also quite claustrophobic.

Caoimhe:

And for me, I just immediately thought no.

Caoimhe:

I'm gonna hate diving.

Caoimhe:

That's gonna make me feel claustrophobic.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I have an irrational fear of getting my shoulders stuck in a concrete pipe.

Caoimhe:

It's irrational because I've never been in a concrete pipe and.

Caoimhe:

Nor would I go in a concrete pipe underwater.

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

But yeah.

Caoimhe:

Anyway, so, but I, it turned out actually I find diving once I'm on, once I got over

Caoimhe:

the initial, I don't like lakes issue.

Caoimhe:

I find diving quite pleasant.

Caoimhe:

I find it very meditative because I learned to dive in German and my German's

Caoimhe:

not as good as my English, right?

Caoimhe:

So I have less words in my, in German.

Caoimhe:

So when I'm underwater, I actually think in German.

Caoimhe:

And because I know less words, I think less.

Caoimhe:

And therefore I find it very relaxing.

Caoimhe:

And I'm also, I think what kind of.

Caoimhe:

Offset.

Caoimhe:

The claustrophobia issue was, I'm blind in one eye, so I'm partially sided.

Caoimhe:

Right.

Caoimhe:

And I've always been blind in my right eye.

Caoimhe:

So I don't have 3D vision.

Caoimhe:

Everything looks like the Simpsons.

Caoimhe:

To me.

Caoimhe:

Everything's flat in 2d.

Caoimhe:

Yes.

Caoimhe:

Wow.

Caoimhe:

And I, have you ever seen that episode of Father Ted where they go to the caravan?

Caoimhe:

so basically Ted and Dougle are in the caravan and they're explaining,

Caoimhe:

Ted is explaining to Dougle why the toy Kai is small, but the chii

Caoimhe:

in the field also looks small.

Caoimhe:

And he's saying to dougle, this one's small and this one's far away.

Caoimhe:

So trying to explain the difference.

Caoimhe:

So that's essentially how I've gone through life is that one's

Caoimhe:

far away and if it's getting bigger then it's getting closer.

Caoimhe:

It's getting closer.

Caoimhe:

So.

Caoimhe:

The, I actually, I worry that the vision would be an issue diving.

Caoimhe:

And it turned out to be completely opposite.

Caoimhe:

Everybody suffers with difference in depth perception in diving just because

Caoimhe:

of the light refraction underwater.

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

So I was busy going, oh, this is just exactly the same as what I normally see.

Caoimhe:

So, yeah.

Caoimhe:

No way.

Liv:

Right.

Liv:

Okay.

Liv:

We're totally digressing, aren't we already?

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

It's fine.

Liv:

So talk to me about, you said obviously you're working.

Liv:

An awful lot of the time because you're passionate about what you do.

Liv:

Tell me about your passions and your values and your, the things that motivate

Liv:

you that keep you going, doing what you

Caoimhe:

do.

Caoimhe:

Okay.

Caoimhe:

I'm aware we only have a certain length of time, so I will try and keep to that.

Caoimhe:

I think one of the things that, that I almost struggle with is that I, it

Caoimhe:

would, my life would be a so much easier if I had one very distinct passion

Caoimhe:

as opposed to a spectrum of passions.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I think it's the best way to describe it.

Caoimhe:

All of my, my, all of my passion is around, Healthcare

Caoimhe:

and providing healthcare.

Caoimhe:

And I mean, and I always stress healthcare because I think at the moment, the way the

Caoimhe:

industry is set up and the way our society is set up is that we don't do healthcare.

Caoimhe:

We do sick care.

Caoimhe:

. And for me that is just not right.

Caoimhe:

And I feel it's unethical as well to do it that way.

Caoimhe:

So that's kind of my overarching mean passion is it's not about

Caoimhe:

fixing something whenever there's a, an issue or an emergency.

Caoimhe:

It's about how do we empower people with an understanding of their own health

Caoimhe:

an early warning system to address things before they become a problem

Caoimhe:

so that they can live people, live their lives in the way that is most

Caoimhe:

reflective of what they want to do.

Caoimhe:

So I'm a big.

Caoimhe:

Believer in everybody having autonomous ownership of their own health data.

Caoimhe:

And , I like the phrase, you know, autonomous ownership of your own health

Caoimhe:

data to make decisions based on your life choices, based on your your lifestyle.

Caoimhe:

And I think that's really important because I don't think we should

Caoimhe:

have the right to dictate.

Caoimhe:

We can swing on the very, on the other end of the spectrum and say, you know,

Caoimhe:

well, you're gonna be penalized if you're a certain you know, if you don't do a

Caoimhe:

certain number of steps a day, you're gonna be penalized if you're a certain

Caoimhe:

weight or you're gonna be penalized.

Caoimhe:

I think we can swing far too far the other side of it and say,

Caoimhe:

you know, this is what health is.

Caoimhe:

You must remain within that.

Caoimhe:

And I don't believe that's what health is.

Caoimhe:

I believe what health is about high people, and it is people

Caoimhe:

because it's about everybody high.

Caoimhe:

Everybody can be empowered to be at a level in their lives that they can

Caoimhe:

do the things that they love to do and that they can contribute in the

Caoimhe:

way that they feel passionate about.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And so for me, it That's super important.

Caoimhe:

And how we do it is then suddenly when that spectrum breaks out

Caoimhe:

for me and all of the different things become incredibly important.

Caoimhe:

Like I hugely passionate about women's health.

Caoimhe:

I'm massively passionate about preventative healthcare.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Early intervention, I'm a huge believer in how do we change the pharma industry

Caoimhe:

so that we stop looking at reactive drugs and we look at early interventions,

Caoimhe:

and that's a change in entire change in the business model of pharma because

Caoimhe:

essentially you're then having to turn around and say, well, I need to convince

Caoimhe:

you to start developing treatments that essentially if they work, you never

Caoimhe:

see that they work because you never see the progression in the patient.

Caoimhe:

And so that that's a very hard sell to say ESP to regulators as well.

Caoimhe:

You know, this patient, this person.

Caoimhe:

Could potentially develop this.

Caoimhe:

So we're gonna give them this so that they never develop it.

Caoimhe:

Yeah, cool.

Caoimhe:

But you'll never know.

Caoimhe:

You'll never know.

Caoimhe:

So it's a really hard sell in that respect.

Caoimhe:

But yeah, so, so it's a big wide spectrum of all the things that

Caoimhe:

I'm really passionate about.

Liv:

So, okay.

Liv:

God, there's a lot to unpack there, isn't there?

Liv:

, so is that then looking at digital health and what individuals, , rather

Liv:

than saying the generic, this is how you have to do this number of steps.

Liv:

Cause it's not the same for everyone.

Liv:

So depending on how you want to live your life and the world that you live in.

Liv:

We need to move to preventative medicine that is entirely bespoke to each

Caoimhe:

individual.

Caoimhe:

Yin, which is my f favorite German word, which means yes, no,

Caoimhe:

at the same time, I like that.

Caoimhe:

I think that in the utopian world, yes, we would be able to have, and

Caoimhe:

if we unpack exactly what you said there is the difference between

Caoimhe:

the early interventions, the actual therapies, there's behavioral change,

Caoimhe:

there is managing risk factors.

Caoimhe:

And understanding and identifying risk factors.

Caoimhe:

And then there is the digital monitoring of people.

Caoimhe:

So all of that, ideally in the utopian world would be delivered

Caoimhe:

and micro and designed right down exactly to the individual.

Caoimhe:

I'm slightly more realistic in that right now.

Caoimhe:

I'm not entirely sure industrially we can do that.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Whether it is something that actually is a valid business model because realistically

Caoimhe:

I do have to sit between the.

Caoimhe:

The what is science fiction and what is a business is gonna be able to sustain?

Caoimhe:

So how do we make those incremental changes where business is still available

Caoimhe:

and sustainable as we move towards this idea of whether it is 3D printing,

Caoimhe:

individual doses of your drug, whether it is understanding from longitudinal

Caoimhe:

data collection points that different people are different metabolizers.

Caoimhe:

So one drug might require 50% of the dose that in one person that it may

Caoimhe:

require in another person, and one person might metabolize that drug

Caoimhe:

better in the morning versus one person might do it better in the evening.

Caoimhe:

And so that's, that is, you know, the level of personalization

Caoimhe:

that I believe we can get to.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I just don't think, I don't think we should attempt to

Caoimhe:

boil the ocean immediately.

Caoimhe:

We do need to go in, in small steps.

Caoimhe:

I'd love to just go from one day to the next, from the standard

Caoimhe:

of care to, this is an entirely personalized journey for you.

Caoimhe:

But I think convincing people to do that is probably gonna be much harder

Caoimhe:

than just me standing up and talking about how wonderful an idea it would be.

Caoimhe:

So from that respect, yin I'll take a yin y.

Caoimhe:

That's okay.

Caoimhe:

Y quite like yin.

Caoimhe:

I might adopt that.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Do It's a great word.

Caoimhe:

It's a great word.

Liv:

Okay.

Liv:

So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your move into

Liv:

independent life and independent work.

Liv:

So you were at Merck for a few years.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Novartis Roosh.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Both for that, so very much the big pharma world.

Liv:

So talk to me a little bit about your decision to move away from that and

Liv:

what motivated that Really totally

Caoimhe:

accidental not deliberate at all, didn't mean to do it even slightly.

Caoimhe:

Thought I was having a holiday.

Caoimhe:

It's in so worst

Liv:

holiday ever.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

It's the strangest

Caoimhe:

holiday.

Caoimhe:

So I, yes, like you said I worked at Merck for six years and I left

Caoimhe:erck at the end of December,:Caoimhe:

And purely because my ambition and my passion essentially was not, I didn't,

Caoimhe:

wasn't aligned specifically with the company's strategic goals at that stage.

Caoimhe:

So we very amicably parted wise at the end of December.

Caoimhe:

And I said, right, okay.

Caoimhe:

So I thought, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take my time.

Caoimhe:

I'm gonna find the right place.

Caoimhe:

I want to find a home.

Caoimhe:

So I'm very motivated by the environment that I work in and wanting to work in an

Caoimhe:

environment where I feel like it's a home.

Caoimhe:

, I wanted a group of similarly engaged and ambitious and directioned kind

Caoimhe:

of individuals that had our culture that I really wanted to buy in.

Caoimhe:

So I kind of sat back and I thought, right.

Caoimhe:

Had lots of conversations.

Caoimhe:

I had lots of conversations and I have to be very honest, I was getting

Caoimhe:

more and more frustrated cuz I was having conversations with people and

Caoimhe:

I'm, I've been incredibly fortunate in my career to have spanned quite a

Caoimhe:

large chunk of the pharma value chain.

Caoimhe:

I don't do manufacturing.

Caoimhe:

Nobody asked me to do manufacturing.

Caoimhe:

I don't know anything about it.

Caoimhe:

And I'm quite happy to put my hands up and say not my thing at all.

Caoimhe:

But I've done research.

Caoimhe:

I've done clinical development, large chunks of all of it.

Caoimhe:

And I've sat within a commercial organization and I've worked on commercial

Caoimhe:

teams, so I have the ability to kind of go between those three big chunks.

Caoimhe:

And I enjoy each of them without a shadow of a doubt.

Caoimhe:

I think where the massive value is where they all link up.

Caoimhe:

. So I was having these conversations with people and talking about, What my

Caoimhe:

principles were and my thoughts were and my experiences were, and I was

Caoimhe:

getting the same message every time.

Caoimhe:

It was, this is fantastic.

Caoimhe:

Like, yes, a hundred percent.

Caoimhe:

We need your skillset, we need your background.

Caoimhe:

We really want you.

Caoimhe:

We just have no idea where to put you.

Caoimhe:

And I said, what do you mean you had no idea where to put you?

Caoimhe:

Well, you know, you have so many skills that we just don't

Caoimhe:

know what area to put you into.

Caoimhe:

And I thought, yeah, this is the big problem.

Caoimhe:

I don't really wanna be in a box anymore.

Caoimhe:

I just So you don't fit in a box.

Caoimhe:

I don't fit in a box.

Caoimhe:

And I've spent 17 years in the pharma industry squashing myself into that

Caoimhe:

box and going, this is the only thing that makes me palatable is if I am

Caoimhe:

willing to shrink myself down into very defined role and be in a box.

Caoimhe:

And I just, that was a massive realization.

Caoimhe:

And so I'd given myself these three months, and in the middle of

Caoimhe:

January I had a conversation with a tech company that I had just been

Caoimhe:

chatting backwards and forwards with.

Caoimhe:

And I'd become friendly with the ceo and they were quite

Caoimhe:

big in financial data security.

Caoimhe:

And he had been at a couple of pharma conferences and we'd gone

Caoimhe:

out for dinner and stuff and we'd chatted and I really like him.

Caoimhe:

He's a really lovely guy and he's really passionate about data security

Caoimhe:

and data privacy and how you.

Caoimhe:

Used data to, to its fullest whilst protecting the data.

Caoimhe:

So we'd been chatting around and he was really keen to get the company

Caoimhe:

into healthcare and pharma industry.

Caoimhe:

And he said would you consider coming, doing a project for us?

Caoimhe:

A couple of months, three months, do a project, we'll pay you to have a look

Caoimhe:

at our product to make suggestions about how that might be fitting

Caoimhe:

into pharma and might be useful.

Caoimhe:

And I said, yeah, that sounds fine.

Caoimhe:

That sounds fun.

Caoimhe:

And then suddenly I had five clients and I didn't know why I went from, I'll do this

Caoimhe:

as a favor to a friend and because I like their product as well to having clients.

Caoimhe:

Going across the spectrum from data security to data acquisition for

Caoimhe:

synthetic control, alarms of clinical trials to genomics, testing for companion

Caoimhe:

diagnostics to digital therapeutics company, to a an accelerator a government

Caoimhe:

sponsored innovation accelerator.

Caoimhe:

Wow.

Caoimhe:

And suddenly I was like, oh, okay.

Caoimhe:

I don't have to fit into a box right now because I can do all

Caoimhe:

of the things that I like and I'm fulfilled in each of these individual

Caoimhe:

companies, and that's okay right now.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

That's, that is where I'm stretched.

Caoimhe:

I'm learning, which is super important to me.

Caoimhe:

I'm challenged, which is also incredibly important to me.

Caoimhe:

And I'm listened to, which I really like, because what I find in pharma

Caoimhe:

is if you voice an opinion on something that is not within your

Caoimhe:

job description, even if you have.

Caoimhe:

The background in it.

Caoimhe:

It's a little bit like, not for you.

Caoimhe:

This is not what you're brought in to talk about.

Caoimhe:

You're brought in to talk about this is what we've employed you to talk about.

Caoimhe:

So being able to actually have people go oh, right, okay.

Caoimhe:

That's really useful information.

Caoimhe:

Was a massive confidence boost in a way.

Caoimhe:

It was a real validation of, okay, I'm not insane.

Caoimhe:

I do actually vaguely know what I'm talking about in

Caoimhe:

all of these different areas.

Caoimhe:

And so it was it's fun.

Caoimhe:

It's a lot of fun.

Caoimhe:

It was completely accidental.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Whether it lasts forever and ever, I don't know.

Caoimhe:

Probably not.

Caoimhe:

But it was it's something that, that gives me a lot of enjoyment at the moment.

Caoimhe:

I was gonna

Liv:

say, it's working

Caoimhe:

for you now.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

So that's all that matters really.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Isn't it?

Caoimhe:

And I get to work with, well, I work with a lot of startups and I love

Caoimhe:

startups because startups are shiny.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Startups are shiny and new and they still believe they can change the world.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Cynicism hasn't been beaten in the startups yet, and I love it because

Caoimhe:

it's such a real refreshing moment of the world is, you know, the

Caoimhe:

world is, everything is possible.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And I get completely swept up in that.

Caoimhe:

And the energy you get out of working with startups and scale-ups is

Caoimhe:

just incredible and such a contrast

Liv:

from Oh, yeah.

Liv:

The big pharma world.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

I get that.

Liv:

Totally.

Liv:

So at the end of last year you were listed by Intelligent Health ai Yeah.

Liv:e of their top innovators for:Liv:

Tell me a little about that.

Caoimhe:

Well, I mean, I know about as much about it as you do.

Caoimhe:

You know, like, like I said, I I presented, or I did a lot of

Caoimhe:

presenting at conferences last year.

Caoimhe:

And because I was in the position at that stage that I was really

Caoimhe:

passionate about moving forward and moving healthcare forward.

Caoimhe:

And I'm, believe it or not, you know, cuz this will come as a

Caoimhe:

complete utter shock to you.

Caoimhe:

I'm quite open with my opinions and I voice them.

Caoimhe:

I know.

Caoimhe:

You would never know.

Caoimhe:

I'm so good at hiding it.

Caoimhe:

I know.

Caoimhe:

But you know, I'm I quite open with my opinions and I I will stand

Caoimhe:

up and say what I think is right.

Caoimhe:

What I think is moving forward.

Caoimhe:

I do have, my favorite slide at the start of every single one of my

Caoimhe:

presentations is a disclaimer slide, which says, I am not here representing

Caoimhe:

anybody I work for, or any academic institution that I'm affiliated with.

Caoimhe:

And all of these opinions are my own.

Caoimhe:

And my final line on my slide is, and I reserve the right to change my opinion

Caoimhe:

at any time when I've learned something new because I think it's super important

Caoimhe:

because everything within the field that we work in, everything is it's so new and

Caoimhe:

everything is changing at all times, that you can't afford to have a fixed mindset.

Caoimhe:

You can't afford to say, this is how I know it.

Caoimhe:

This is the way it's gonna be forever.

Caoimhe:

I'm not gonna deviate away from this.

Caoimhe:

You need to go in with a constant.

Caoimhe:

Evolution of this is gonna change.

Caoimhe:

It's gonna change.

Caoimhe:

I need to be available.

Caoimhe:

I need to learn from it because I need to give the best that I can for everything.

Caoimhe:

So, yeah.

Caoimhe:

And I'm not afraid to be wrong.

Caoimhe:

I don't mind being wrong.

Caoimhe:

Sorry.

Caoimhe:

This is deviated from an intelligent health.

Caoimhe:

That's why I asked.

Caoimhe:

But basically I was doing a lot of presentation last year.

Caoimhe:

That's where I came back to.

Caoimhe:

And I was obviously giving my opinion an awful lot.

Caoimhe:

And what I have to say, and I'm gonna be a little bit controversial here, and I do

Caoimhe:

apologize for the people on these lists.

Caoimhe:

I was having, it was in December of last year that I was named and I was

Caoimhe:

having dinner with two friends of mine.

Caoimhe:

And we were laughing because I think the day before the Forbes 40

Caoimhe:

under 40 list had been released.

Caoimhe:

And somebody had been put on it and we were like, We know that person and they

Caoimhe:

don't really know what they're doing.

Caoimhe:

And that's a really interesting thing.

Caoimhe:

And then there was the whole discussion about, oh, these

Caoimhe:

lists don't really mean anything.

Caoimhe:

A lot of the lists are, you apply for them.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And you self nominated or Yes.

Caoimhe:

Or you pay for them as well.

Caoimhe:

So we were having this, we were laughing, and literally the next day I had a

Caoimhe:

notification on my phone from LinkedIn and it was Ping, you know, you've

Caoimhe:

been tagged in this LinkedIn post.

Caoimhe:

And I was like, oh, well post, have, I've been tagged in by Intelligent Health.

Caoimhe:

And I clicked on it and it was like, top 55 list.

Caoimhe:

And I screenshotted it and I sent it to the boys and I said,

Caoimhe:

I swear I didn't apply for this.

Caoimhe:

I'm swear I had no idea this was happening.

Caoimhe:

And it was just, it was so funny because it was the day after

Caoimhe:

we'd had that exact conversation.

Caoimhe:

So I have to say I was incredibly flattered.

Caoimhe:

If you look at the list on it.

Caoimhe:

There are some incredible people on it.

Caoimhe:

Would I have necessarily put myself amongst those?

Caoimhe:

I wouldn't have even considered or thought about it, but I'm incredibly.

Caoimhe:

Incredibly flattered to have been considered amongst that list.

Caoimhe:

Just for being, for standing up and saying whatever was in

Caoimhe:

my head of the day at the time.

Caoimhe:

Okay.

Liv:

Well, let's talk more about what's in your head on the topic of AI then, because

Liv:

we are in this huge period of change.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Massive disruption from the generative AI coming in at the end of last year.

Liv:

Open, open ai.

Liv:

Where do you, what are your opinions that you stood up and shared, around AI

Liv:

and how it can benefit pharma or perhaps the areas that we need to watch out for.

Liv:

What are your thoughts?

Caoimhe:

Even more interesting is I would not classify myself as an AI specialist.

Caoimhe:

I don't, I, I don't proclaim to know that I know how data can

Caoimhe:

be leveraged to solve a problem.

Caoimhe:

I don't know how it does it, but I know that it can be leveraged.

Caoimhe:

I know I can identify the problem, I can identify what I

Caoimhe:

want the solution to look like.

Caoimhe:

I'm not necessarily the one that connects the problem to the solution via the

Caoimhe:

AI or the, anything within that space.

Caoimhe:

So I fully put my hands up and say, there are people out there that are

Caoimhe:

bigger, better, and smarter than I am.

Caoimhe:

When it comes to ai, I think the opinion that I have had about AI for a long

Caoimhe:

time is that, first of all, it's a tool.

Caoimhe:

It's an incredibly valuable tool if it's used right, but most

Caoimhe:

importantly, AI is only as good as the data that goes into it.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And so for me, we can talk an awful lot about the sexy stuff, and you

Caoimhe:

can throw out ai, machine learning, you know, big data, blah, blah, blah.

Caoimhe:

You can, all of the buzzwords that, to be frank, pharma, love to

Caoimhe:

throw around, love to throw around.

Caoimhe:

But structurally, the data architecture, the data governance, the data quality

Caoimhe:

and the amount of data points that you have available to generate the outcome

Caoimhe:

of the, all of the AI you're using is equally valuable, but it's not as sexy.

Caoimhe:

So some of the challenges that I've seen and faced in the past and I do

Caoimhe:

whenever I talk to startups and things, and they're trying to push these

Caoimhe:

incredible solutions and this is amazing.

Caoimhe:

And I'm like yeah.

Caoimhe:

Whoa.

Caoimhe:

Let's dial it back a little bit.

Caoimhe:

You don't want to essentially sync yourself and your credibility

Caoimhe:

because at the end of the day, you are building models that people

Caoimhe:

are gonna make decisions of.

Caoimhe:

And within healthcare, you're building models that are go, people are gonna

Caoimhe:

make either diagnos, diagnostic decisions, prognostic decisions.

Caoimhe:

You're affecting people's lives and their treatment off of the

Caoimhe:

algorithms and the products you build.

Caoimhe:

And that's fantastic, as long as they've been trained correctly,

Caoimhe:

that there's enough data that it is actually statistically significant.

Caoimhe:

And so start with that.

Caoimhe:

Start with your data and the value in that and the quality that comes out of that.

Caoimhe:

The AI is the sexiness on the top.

Caoimhe:

And it can do an ama, it can do amazing things, but rubbish in equals rubbish out.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And that's the important thing as well, that we tend to overlook.

Caoimhe:

Yeah,

Liv:

I would completely agree with that

Liv:

. So where do you think then, and I

Liv:

when you're speaking to companies , particularly in pharma and life sciences,

Liv:

where do you think the industry needs to focus on over the coming years?

Liv:

What do you think the priorities should be to get to the the vision that you hold

Liv:

in terms of that preventative healthcare?

Liv:

Yeah,

Caoimhe:

I think so first of all, I think that it'll take more

Caoimhe:

than just my thoughts on this.

Caoimhe:

I think it'll take an awful lot more from people.

Caoimhe:

I'll split it into two ways.

Caoimhe:

I think society needs to change and I think business needs to

Caoimhe:

change, and one will always follow the other, and depending on.

Caoimhe:

Where the money goes is who, which goes first.

Caoimhe:

So are we going to demand better as people and as a society, are we gonna

Caoimhe:

demand better from our healthcare?

Caoimhe:

Are we gonna demand the level of personalization that we have,

Caoimhe:

personalization and digitalization that we have and have experienced from

Caoimhe:

post, post the last number of years?

Caoimhe:

You know, I use the example of I love crappy Hallmark movies.

Caoimhe:

Hallmark Romcom Christmas movies on Netflix.

Caoimhe:

I will watch every single one of them.

Caoimhe:

And I know that, and I know I've watched every single one of them because my

Caoimhe:

algorithm on Netflix shows me all the ones that I will want to watch.

Caoimhe:

And you know what?

Caoimhe:

I watch them and it is makes me very happy because I can switch off my brain

Caoimhe:

and I can watch all of the formulaic, happy endings that are gonna happen.

Caoimhe:

And everybody ends up having a lovely time and it's great.

Caoimhe:

And I go away feeling a wee bit better because the world is lovely

Caoimhe:

and nothing's challenged me in the hour and a half that I've sat down and

Caoimhe:

actually relaxed for something now.

Caoimhe:

Amazon and I have a very tumultuous relationship because they keep suggesting

Caoimhe:

things for me and I keep buying them.

Caoimhe:

So my bank account has fallen out with Amazon on numerous occasions and my

Caoimhe:

house is full of bits of pieces of stuff, and I own more metal straws

Caoimhe:

than any one single human should own.

Caoimhe:

But yes, Amazon keeps suggesting products that I might like.

Caoimhe:

And you know what?

Caoimhe:

Amazon is quite right.

Caoimhe:

They are very good at that.

Caoimhe:

Very good at that.

Caoimhe:

But why are we not demanding that from our healthcare?

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And wow, this is for me, is there's, there're gonna be two inflection points

Caoimhe:

is either the world is gonna turn around, stand up and say, stop dictating

Caoimhe:

to me what healthcare looks like.

Caoimhe:

Stop dictating to me what my treatment plan or pathway should be.

Caoimhe:

This is what I want.

Caoimhe:

Pharma talk an awful good game on patient centricity and patient

Caoimhe:

design, drug development, and patient centered, all of that jazz.

Caoimhe:

But at the end of the day, are they asking them to develop the drug that is going to

Caoimhe:

actually fix the problem with the patient?

Caoimhe:

Or are they asking the patient to essentially give them the validation

Caoimhe:

about bits of the drug pathway that they can still develop the

Caoimhe:

same drug, but say, but we talk to patients and patients want this.

Caoimhe:

And you know, that's gotta change.

Caoimhe:

That's really gotta change.

Caoimhe:

And I had a great conversation actually on Monday.

Caoimhe:

I was in Basil and I was chatting to a Swiss hospital administrator and he

Caoimhe:

was talking about how they're trying to discourage more specialization.

Caoimhe:

So they're trying to get more in his general practice cuz specialization

Caoimhe:

becomes within the hospital system becomes quite expensive and they're

Caoimhe:

always booked up and things like that.

Caoimhe:

And he said, you know, we're really trying to look at.

Caoimhe:

How we change that around and look at how we, we make sure that we are

Caoimhe:

delivering what patients need and and not just providing solutions to people

Caoimhe:

because we're finding that sometimes the solutions we provide actually

Caoimhe:

make the patients' condition worse.

Caoimhe:

And I said, well, I can understand that.

Caoimhe:

And he said, but how can you understand that?

Caoimhe:

You know, why does that make any sense?

Caoimhe:

We fixed something, we've cured it.

Caoimhe:

And I said, look, I'm blind in my right eye and I have been since birth.

Caoimhe:

Everything is 2d.

Caoimhe:

It would completely decimate my life if I suddenly have sight in my right eye.

Caoimhe:

Because I wouldn't know how my depth perception would be off.

Caoimhe:

Everything would change.

Caoimhe:

My view of the world would change and I'm 37, it takes a long time to unlearn all

Caoimhe:

of the things that I have learned Yeah.

Caoimhe:

At that stage.

Caoimhe:

So my coping mechanisms would be completely off the

Caoimhe:

chart and all over the place.

Caoimhe:

What is important to me is not regaining or getting the sight in my right eye.

Caoimhe:

What is important to me is preventing the loss in my left eye.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

That's important to me.

Caoimhe:

Not developing a cure or a treatment for my current vision,

Caoimhe:

but preventing that changing.

Caoimhe:

And so that's where we need to start looking at is that push.

Caoimhe:

Where does that initial push come from?

Caoimhe:

Where pharma and drug development and therapeutic, I'm gonna say therapeutic

Caoimhe:

development, starts to shift towards.

Caoimhe:

What is the thing that the patient really wants and needs?

Caoimhe:

And how do we look at, instead of desperately trying to fix something,

Caoimhe:

like I've said, how do we make sure that the standard of life and

Caoimhe:

condition that the patient is used to, likes and wants is maintained?

Caoimhe:

And if the money, if the business models come into place where that is actually

Caoimhe:

financially viable to do, and whether it is pushed from regulators, whether

Caoimhe:

it is pushed from the government, whether it is pushed from the consumers.

Caoimhe:

I'm gonna say something that a lot of people hate me saying We

Caoimhe:

need to consumerize healthcare, and I don't mean in the way that.

Caoimhe:

It's consumerized like apple or consumerized, like Google or consumerized.

Caoimhe:

Like you, you go to a supermarket and you buy whatever you want.

Caoimhe:

It's not what I mean about consumerization.

Caoimhe:

We need to treat patients as consumers, as the end users.

Caoimhe:

Because at the moment, that's not what healthcare with pharma does.

Caoimhe:

Pharma's end users are the prescribers, and that's the you're taking away the

Caoimhe:

par and the ownership from the end users.

Caoimhe:

And the end users are the patients.

Caoimhe:

So they're the ones that actually have to take the medication that is

Caoimhe:

designed for them, take the therapeutics that are designed for them, so

Caoimhe:

they should have a say and in what.

Caoimhe:

What is developed for them, they should have a say in how that makes

Caoimhe:

them feel, how they're affected by it.

Caoimhe:

We need to consumerize health and treat the patients as having the

Caoimhe:

par to determine what is their view of health and determine how

Caoimhe:

they want to live their life.

Caoimhe:

Yeah,

Liv:

it's almost like, so pharma is always set up to be b2b, isn't it?

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

And it's B2C really.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

When you talk about like that, it is it's actually you're focusing on

Liv:

an individual, not an organization.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

That makes so much sense.

Liv:

So you are a sports fanatic, tell me a little bit about that and more

Liv:

importantly, tell me how on earth you balance that in your life.

Caoimhe:

Okay, so that's super, I'll start with the second part of it.

Caoimhe:

Currently, I don't balance it.

Caoimhe:

It's the age old question of, you know, how do you develop a work-life balance?

Caoimhe:

And people ask me, what is my work-life balance?

Caoimhe:

And I say, yes, I have a work life that, and then I stop.

Caoimhe:

And like I said earlier on, that need, that massively needs to change.

Caoimhe:

And I am a believer of that myself.

Caoimhe:

I'm really trying to put in place that And I'm gonna say, I'm gonna

Caoimhe:

commit to something and I'm gonna commit to it on a recording.

Caoimhe:

Yes.

Caoimhe:

So I can't go back on it.

Caoimhe:

And I'm going to, I'm really gonna live to regret this, but I'm gonna have to do it.

Caoimhe:

I'll get to that in a second.

Caoimhe:

But yeah I'm really trying to commit to living rather than existing.

Caoimhe:

And living in the moment, I am the nightmare when it

Caoimhe:

comes to planning things.

Caoimhe:

I plan everything down to the N degree.

Caoimhe:

I have spreadsheets.

Caoimhe:

I have more spreadsheets than anyone human in the world should ever have.

Caoimhe:

And I love spreadsheets.

Caoimhe:

And I mean, to the extent where I keep a.

Caoimhe:

Birthday and Christmas present spreadsheets and have done for years.

Caoimhe:

Oh my God.

Caoimhe:

I love that.

Caoimhe:

And I add people to it.

Caoimhe:

And during the year, I just go through and if I see something that I think someone

Caoimhe:

might like, I put it on the spreadsheet.

Caoimhe:

Oh my God.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Oh my God.

Caoimhe:

And when I go places, I plan

Liv:

everything.

Liv:

I love this.

Liv:

Oh, it's not good though

Caoimhe:

because I shouldn't love it, but I didn't.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

But what I noticed over the last, I was fine with it up until the last couple

Caoimhe:

of years when I noticed that I wasn't enjoying the thing as I was doing it.

Caoimhe:

I was busy going, yep, okay, come on.

Caoimhe:

We need to go to the next thing.

Caoimhe:

Because it's planned into the schedule that we do the

Caoimhe:

next thing at the next time.

Caoimhe:

We're running behind, I was running everything like project meetings.

Caoimhe:

Like I was going on holiday with people going, okay, come on next.

Caoimhe:

Move.

Caoimhe:

Yes, let's go.

Caoimhe:

Dinner's booked at 7, 6 53.

Caoimhe:

Come on, it's a seven minute walk.

Caoimhe:

Let's go.

Caoimhe:

So, and I just, I wasn't enjoying where I was at the moment at the at in the moment.

Caoimhe:

And so that's something that.

Caoimhe:

I'm working to try and fix I to do that I'm doing things like I've just

Caoimhe:

got the most incredible new apartment.

Caoimhe:

So I move house next month.

Caoimhe:

Why?

Caoimhe:

I thought that was a good idea in the middle of starting up an

Caoimhe:

independent consultancy company.

Caoimhe:

I don't know, but I decided that was what I was gonna do and I've

Caoimhe:

got a beautiful new apartment.

Caoimhe:

I'm really excited to get in.

Caoimhe:

It's going to, it's just gonna make me, it's gonna make my life better and

Caoimhe:

it's gonna be fun and quirky and I'm gonna have plenty of space for guests.

Caoimhe:

I'm gonna have plenty of space for an office that I can work in comfortably.

Caoimhe:

And not that I'm ever in, that's cuz I'm traveling all the time.

Caoimhe:

But, you know, I'll build a cat corner for the cat.

Caoimhe:

And it'll be fine and I'll, but I'll feel like a home.

Caoimhe:

I'll feel like I've really settled in a home as opposed to a house.

Caoimhe:

Cause I live in houses.

Caoimhe:

And I think for the last number of years I've really lived in houses.

Caoimhe:

I've existed in houses as opposed to living in a home.

Caoimhe:

So I'm building my own home, a little nest of comfort and happiness, and

Caoimhe:

I'm gonna buy myself a pink smeg fridge as my, oh my God, ward.

Caoimhe:

Oh, I'm so excited.

Caoimhe:

So excited.

Caoimhe:

So, yeah, so that's essentially my answer to that.

Caoimhe:

I don't have a work life balance at the moment, but I'm working on it

Caoimhe:

with regards to sport, and this is where I'm gonna commit to something.

Caoimhe:

I was just gonna

Liv:

say, what are you gonna commit to?

Liv:

I'm gonna

Caoimhe:

commit to something I've played sport.

Caoimhe:

I I love sport.

Caoimhe:

I like doing it because I'm highly competitive.

Caoimhe:

I am highly competitive.

Caoimhe:

For a very long time, we weren't allowed to play board games as

Caoimhe:

children because it always ended.

Caoimhe:

Were too competitive and always ended in awry.

Caoimhe:

So I didn't really, so I didn't really grow up and we didn't play cards.

Caoimhe:

Like, and when I dive on the dive boat, in between dives, you tend to play cards.

Caoimhe:

I knew Snap and that was pretty much the end of my card knowledge.

Caoimhe:

And I've had to be taught card games and I am.

Caoimhe:

Worst card player.

Caoimhe:

Cause I get I both love and hate rules and I enforce them like nobody's business.

Caoimhe:

I'm like, no, you've cheated.

Caoimhe:

No, it's, you're not allowed it.

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

So I'm super competitive, hyper competitive.

Caoimhe:

So I did, I played a lot of sport as a kid because I could be competitive

Caoimhe:

and I played sport and I played rugby.

Caoimhe:

I played rugby at a time in Northern Ireland where rugby for

Caoimhe:

girls was only just taking off.

Caoimhe:

And I was a complete utter enforcer on the pitch.

Caoimhe:

So I, I.

Caoimhe:

I'm tall and I'm broad and I'm very strong and I, running into me was like

Caoimhe:

running into a brick wall and I was, when I started running, I'm actually, at

Caoimhe:

the time, I'm, I was deceptively quick.

Caoimhe:

Nobody really thought when I started to tr that it was actually

Caoimhe:

gonna go anywhere at speed.

Caoimhe:

But I'm deceptively quick and and I'm like a freight train.

Caoimhe:

I'm completely not a runaway freight train.

Caoimhe:

I'm very difficult to stop on a rugby pitch, haven't played rugby in a number of

Caoimhe:

years cuz I, I ended up being quite badly injured and broke my ankle quite badly.

Caoimhe:

But I just loved sport.

Caoimhe:

I loved being part of a team.

Caoimhe:

I loved, I loved being good at something.

Caoimhe:

I think that was really I excelled at sports, so I enjoyed it.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And yeah, so I, it was such a serious part of my identity for a

Caoimhe:

very long time as well, that when and I'd made a commitment, so I.

Caoimhe:

Played rugby.

Caoimhe:

I was involved in athletics.

Caoimhe:

I, I competed an awful lot and I absolutely loved it.

Caoimhe:

And then I, after I broke my ankle, I was sent by my physio

Caoimhe:

at the time to do CrossFit.

Caoimhe:

And he said to me, normally I would not send you to do CrossFit.

Caoimhe:

I don't agree with CrossFit.

Caoimhe:

CrossFit's not good, CrossFit bad, but it's very bad for people who are injured.

Caoimhe:

And it's very bad for people who are injured and hyper competitive.

Caoimhe:

But I don't trust you on your own to not do something stupid cuz you'll get bored.

Caoimhe:

And my physio knew me very well and he said, I'm sending

Caoimhe:

you to CrossFit in Cambridge.

Caoimhe:

At that stage I was living in Cambridge.

Caoimhe:

I'm handing you CrossFit because my brother works there

Caoimhe:

and my best friend owns it.

Caoimhe:

And I have warned them about you, Uhhuh.

Caoimhe:

And I have to say he really did warn them because they watched me like a hawk.

Caoimhe:

I was not allowed to do anything that wasn't specifically prescribed by him.

Caoimhe:

But again, I loved it because, I was really strong.

Caoimhe:

Now could I do a pull up?

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

Could I?

Caoimhe:

Did I want to do a burpee?

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

Oh my God, no.

Caoimhe:

Did I have any interest in ever doing a muscle up?

Caoimhe:

Not even slightly.

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

Weightlifting excelled at it immediately.

Caoimhe:

Yeah, I'm strong.

Caoimhe:

So it, to me that was like fun.

Caoimhe:

Great.

Caoimhe:

I'm good at this.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

So I'm topping the leaderboard, which means it's seriously motivating for me.

Caoimhe:

And so I really got into the weightlifting side of things and I started to

Caoimhe:

train quite seriously about it.

Caoimhe:

And I thought, cuz I like to have a goal.

Caoimhe:

I thought, well, not many weightlifters in Northern Ireland.

Caoimhe:

There are now, there's a much, much bigger weightlifting

Caoimhe:

community in Northern Ireland.

Caoimhe:

There were than there were at that stage.

Caoimhe:

And I thought, oh, I can maybe train for the Commonwealth Games, see if I can try

Caoimhe:

and qualify for the Commonwealth Games.

Caoimhe:

And so I did until Covid hit and then I was trapped inside my

Caoimhe:

apartment working 17 hour days.

Caoimhe:

And I just thought, look, I love this, but even I have to admit that I

Caoimhe:

could continue to try and force this through, but it's just not gonna work.

Caoimhe:

I can't commit to that level of training.

Caoimhe:

And so I kind of had to give up on that.

Caoimhe:

But my big commitment now, cuz I always have a goal and I know you're

Caoimhe:

watching me with, I cannot wait for this very excited in my lunacy.

Caoimhe:

I have decided, I decided this about two years ago and I have done

Caoimhe:

absolutely nothing towards it as yet.

Caoimhe:

Right.

Caoimhe:

But I have decided that before my 40th birthday, I would

Caoimhe:

like to swim the channel.

Caoimhe:

Oh my God.

Caoimhe:

Amazing.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

So I've, yeah.

Caoimhe:

I like

Liv:

You need to firm this up now.

Liv:

No, you need to commit to it.

Liv:

Yeah, you do.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Do you need to commit to it?

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

So, cause you just said you'd like to, I'd like to.

Liv:

I, oh, I'm gonna firm you up.

Liv:

Yeah, you are.

Liv:

You're

Caoimhe:

gonna, you're gonna meet me.

Caoimhe:

Do it.

Caoimhe:

You're gonna commit to it.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I, it gives me three years.

Caoimhe:

It does.

Caoimhe:

To swim the channel.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

So you're gonna do that?

Caoimhe:

Yes.

Liv:

You are gonna swim the channel?

Liv:

Yes.

Liv:

By what year then?

Liv:

Right away.

Liv:

2025.

Liv:

2025?

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Okay.

Liv:

So it's really just two and a half,

Caoimhe:

3, 1, 3, 2 and a half?

Caoimhe:

Yes.

Caoimhe:

Okay.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

So, okay.

Caoimhe:th year, which can be up to:Caoimhe:

Okay.

Caoimhe:To:Caoimhe:

Well,

Liv:

if you get sponsorship or anything like that or want any support on

Liv:

that, I am here for this now because you have put your, you have laid it

Liv:

down on this show, so I will support

Caoimhe:

you however you need, and anybody who wants to sponsor me and

Caoimhe:

laugh at an ex rugby player who should not be swimming the channel, swim in

Caoimhe:

the channel, please feel free to do so.

Caoimhe:

I will gladly set up some form of Instagram page of

Caoimhe:

we'll do mockery of myself.

Caoimhe:

Yep.

Liv:

And even if I have to add it to the show notes

Liv:

retrospectively, we will do that.

Liv:

Now, if you would like to see,

Caoimhe:

yeah, if you would like to see this really not

Caoimhe:

work very well, but go for it.

Caoimhe:

Tune in.

Caoimhe:

Tune in.

Caoimhe:

But please pay me lots of money.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

It'll definitely need to be for a charity.

Caoimhe:

And I think it's quite a, it's quite a financial endeavor to actually

Caoimhe:

swim the channel because I did a bit of looking into it originally.

Caoimhe:

And you have to do things like hire safety crews and boats and

Caoimhe:

things like that to follow you.

Caoimhe:

Wow.

Caoimhe:

So you know, you don't drown or be hit by a tanker.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Those are two very important things

Liv:

to avoid.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Don't get hit by a tanker.

Liv:

No, it's not

Caoimhe:

worth that.

Caoimhe:

Definitely wouldn't, I definitely wouldn't reach France by that stage.

Caoimhe:

So,

Liv:

so how are you gonna ba fit that into your life now then do, when we're talking

Liv:

about, let's go back to work life balance.

Liv:

Yeah.

Liv:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

How are you gonna make that work?

Caoimhe:

Yeah, that's, it's another commitment I have to make.

Caoimhe:

You're gonna need an Excel spreadsheet.

Caoimhe:

Oh.

Caoimhe:

There's a hundred percent gonna be an Excel spreadsheet somewhere.

Caoimhe:

The new apartment that I have got is a three minute cycle away from

Caoimhe:

an Olympic-sized swimming pool.

Caoimhe:

Nice.

Caoimhe:

So I think I am going to need to spend an awful lot of time in the

Caoimhe:

Olympic swim size swimming pool.

Caoimhe:

Do you know what's terrifying and what's hideous?

Caoimhe:

And you're gonna love this.

Caoimhe:

I'm gonna have to swim in lakes.

Caoimhe:

Oh.

Caoimhe:

Oh, no.

Caoimhe:

Oh, you are?

Caoimhe:

Yes.

Caoimhe:

I am gonna have to swim in lakes.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Oh yeah, you are.

Caoimhe:

I am.

Caoimhe:

Am There's no getting away from that.

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

And I'm gonna have to, and I, cuz I am a nightmare in that I am very proficient

Caoimhe:

in the breast stroke, but and I'm very good at 50 meters front crawl.

Caoimhe:

Because it, I can't breathe, but I can get 50 meters without having to breathe.

Caoimhe:

So I can get to the other end of the pool, but then I'm like, now I'm dead.

Caoimhe:

So I'm going to need to get, so anybody out there who knows a good swimming coach

Caoimhe:

that could teach me to front crawl Okay.

Caoimhe:

For endurance swimming.

Caoimhe:

Get in touch.

Caoimhe:

Get in touch.

Caoimhe:

I will take any tips.

Caoimhe:

Yes.

Caoimhe:

I'll take any advice from anybody.

Caoimhe:

Preferably advice that is useful.

Caoimhe:

That would be good.

Caoimhe:

Not just don't do it.

Caoimhe:

Don't, I mean, you can give me that advice, but I'm pigheaded

Caoimhe:

enough to go, well, that's

Liv:

just made me wanna do it.

Liv:

Well, I've said,

Caoimhe:

yeah.

Caoimhe:

So any advice that anybody can give on that?

Caoimhe:

I think, yeah.

Caoimhe:

It's well received.

Caoimhe:

Yes.

Caoimhe:

Okay.

Caoimhe:

Well you are being held to that now.

Caoimhe:

You know that, don't you?

Caoimhe:

Fantastic.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Okay.

Caoimhe:

Just

Liv:

so you're aware of that.

Liv:

Okay.

Liv:

Okay.

Liv:

So when we first spoke, , you told me that you were the quiet kid

Liv:

when you were in school, or you were quite reserved in school.

Liv:

Is

Caoimhe:

that right?

Caoimhe:

I think I was quite, no, I, I think I was the daydreamer.

Caoimhe:

I think that's what I, I said I spent a lot of time in my own head at school.

Caoimhe:

I would love to know.

Caoimhe:

I don't really I'm not super close to the people I went to school with any longer.

Caoimhe:

I'm much closer to people I went to university with.

Caoimhe:

Because by that stage I kind of felt a little bit more me.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I can't say I loved school very much.

Caoimhe:

I loved the academic side of it.

Caoimhe:

I really loved the learning side of it.

Caoimhe:

I didn't necessarily love the environment that I was in the politics of.

Caoimhe:

I know politics, then I went into pharma.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Cause that has less politics.

Caoimhe:

I don't know.

Caoimhe:

I just, I didn't love school.

Caoimhe:

You know, people, some people say, you know, school days is

Caoimhe:

the best days of your life.

Caoimhe:

Nah, not for me.

Caoimhe:

Thanks very much.

Caoimhe:

I'm good.

Caoimhe:

I'd rather never go anywhere near it, ever again.

Caoimhe:

So I don't know what other people's perception of me was at school, but my

Caoimhe:

self perception at school was that I spent a lot of time in my head And I kind of

Caoimhe:

just I wouldn't have said I was popular.

Caoimhe:

I wouldn't have said I was unpopular.

Caoimhe:

I just kind of drifted between kind of different friend groups.

Caoimhe:

Again, no box.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

You know, I drifted between the academic crowd and the sports crowd and I

Caoimhe:

spent a, like I was said earlier on, I was in school choir, I was involved

Caoimhe:

in school musicals quite a lot.

Caoimhe:

So I kind of drifted between all types of different groups within

Caoimhe:

school and yeah, I probably didn't, I don't think I came into myself.

Caoimhe:

I don't think I came into knowing and myself as a human being and being

Caoimhe:

comfortable in my own skin until I was probably in my early thirties anyway.

Caoimhe:

So I think my self perception of me at school was probably that I wasn't

Caoimhe:

massively happy and I just didn't really.

Caoimhe:

Want to be there an awful lot of the time.

Caoimhe:

And so I daydreamed a lot.

Caoimhe:

Because I could escape inside my own head and think about things.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I get that.

Caoimhe:

Yep.

Liv:

Do you still, are you still involved with singing now?

Liv:

Do you do any, are you in a choir or anything?

Liv:

My mother would

Caoimhe:

love to say that I do an awful lot more because she likes

Caoimhe:

to remind me that they spent a fortune on singing lessons for me.

Caoimhe:

I do still sing.

Caoimhe:

Yes.

Caoimhe:

I, part of my work life balance Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Is to find a choir in Germany that I can join.

Caoimhe:

When I lived in Basil, I lived in Basil for about seven years.

Caoimhe:

I was very involved in the Basel English Theater Group, which is a fantastic group.

Caoimhe:

And we did rent and I was involved in that.

Caoimhe:

And we got involved in the Panto Society as well.

Caoimhe:

Oh my God.

Caoimhe:

Amazing.

Caoimhe:

So, and I loved Panto because it was just completely off the wall.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And we had a couple of years we were, had a really good musical director and

Caoimhe:

who was willing to do things a little bit, so a little bit off the wall.

Caoimhe:

And there was another guy there at the time actually Anthony who's he's

Caoimhe:

really good at a talent acquisition for a new nutrition company.

Caoimhe:

But at that stage, he was doing He, he took some time off to go and do a

Caoimhe:

master's in musical theater in London.

Caoimhe:

And so he and I were kind of batting backwards and forwards

Caoimhe:

what we could potentially do.

Caoimhe:

That was fun.

Caoimhe:

And we ended up doing, he played the Panto Dam and we ended up doing

Caoimhe:

the a song from Spam alo amazing.

Caoimhe:

In, in the break while they were, you know, changing the scenery behind

Caoimhe:

the curtain and things like that.

Caoimhe:

And including he, we got very over enthusiastic at one stage and he

Caoimhe:

spun me off the stage and I ended up like, falling into the orchestra pit.

Caoimhe:

But yeah, I haven't done it.

Caoimhe:

I haven't had a chance or kind of done it since I lived in Basil.

Caoimhe:

And I'd really like to do it again because it's, I think it's another facet of

Caoimhe:

me that kind of needs to be exercised, otherwise it gets a bit, yeah, get itchy.

Caoimhe:

So my per neighbors in my current apartment have heard me saying

Caoimhe:

upper, at the top of my lungs.

Caoimhe:

11:00 AM in the morning or 8:00 PM at night.

Caoimhe:

And I have to say bless German engineering that the insulation

Caoimhe:

is very good in German apartments.

Caoimhe:

So we just have to see how good the insulation is in the new apartment.

Caoimhe:

Oh, amazing.

Caoimhe:

Yeah, it's gross.

Caoimhe:

Fingers crossed I don't make enemies in the new

Liv:

apartment.

Liv:

So if you could then go back, well, so there's a couple of questions now

Liv:

that I've got to ask you before we wrap up and they're very much in line

Liv:

with what we were just talking about.

Liv:

So if you were to go back to the girl in high school Yeah.

Liv:

Before, when as you say, you weren't really who you want, who you ended up

Liv:

to be, what advice would you go back and give yourself if you could, knowing

Caoimhe:

everything you now know?

Caoimhe:

I think what I would probably say is stop beating yourself up.

Caoimhe:

I am very self hypercritical.

Caoimhe:

Self critical.

Caoimhe:

Yep.

Caoimhe:

I would probably say to her to, you know what, you are focusing on

Caoimhe:

things and freaking out about things and having anxiety and stressing

Caoimhe:

yourself out about things that other people haven't actually a, noticed

Caoimhe:

or B cared about or c remembered.

Caoimhe:

So stop beating yourself up about things.

Caoimhe:

You know, if you think you've done something really bad,

Caoimhe:

go and speak to the person.

Caoimhe:

Have the guts to go inside of the person.

Caoimhe:

I'm really sorry.

Caoimhe:

I think I hurt you or I think I screwed up, or, I don't really know.

Caoimhe:

And instead of being defensive or just stressing about it, just address it.

Caoimhe:

I think my, the biggest learning I have is that if you just nip

Caoimhe:

it in the bud before you end up stressing about it, it's a much, much

Caoimhe:

healthier way of dealing with things.

Caoimhe:

Cuz they may turn around and be like, actually no, I have no idea.

Caoimhe:

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Caoimhe:

Or, oh, that, oh, that was a throwaway comment.

Caoimhe:

I didn't even pay attention.

Caoimhe:

Or I didn't take it to heart.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

But I think I, I probably would say nip it in the bud.

Caoimhe:

Don't stress about things and be open to apologize.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I think that's super important.

Caoimhe:

Just say, look, I'm really sorry, I didn't mean it, it doesn't excuse

Caoimhe:

it, but I'll do my best to be better.

Caoimhe:

Other than that, I probably wouldn't.

Caoimhe:

I.

Caoimhe:

I would love to say, you know, don't let yourself be put into a box or, I think

Caoimhe:

the perception, I felt that the perception of me in school or what I self perceived

Caoimhe:

that other people may have perceived about me kind of wasn't who I was.

Caoimhe:

I would love to say don't put yourself in a box and don't feel that way.

Caoimhe:

But at the end of the day, you need to learn those lessons.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

You need to learn your own boundaries.

Caoimhe:

You need to learn your own principles, your own integrity.

Caoimhe:

And I don't think I could have done that, and I don't think I would be who I

Caoimhe:

am now without having learned all that.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Liv:

No, fair enough.

Liv:

So the final question yes.

Liv:

I have for you is about the movie Sliding Doors.

Liv:

Yes.

Liv:

Now, I know you said you haven't seen it, which actually now having spoken to you

Liv:

about your love for romcom movies, I said, no, I can't believe you're gonna have

Caoimhe:

not.

Caoimhe:

But are they Hallmark or made by the Canadian Film Board?

Caoimhe:

Because I'm very, very niche in my crappy romcom movies that I enjoy to watch.

Caoimhe:

Fair enough.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

I have no idea in all on the, no, I

Liv:

don't.

Liv:

Okay.

Liv:

So very quick overview of the movie , Gwyneth Paltrow it's

Liv:

probably early nineties, this movie.

Liv:

She goes out one day to work as she does every day.

Liv:

Nine to five goes to get on the train.

Liv:

She's running a little bit late.

Liv:

I can't remember why, to be honest with I really should revisit the movie.

Liv:

But anyway and I watch it.

Liv:

I just let you know what

Caoimhe:

Happens, yeah.

Caoimhe:

To tell me.

Caoimhe:

I'll

Liv:

probably even get it all wrong when I tell people what the

Liv:

whole premise of the movie is.

Liv:

This totally wrong.

Liv:

So she goes to get the train.

Liv:

She misses the train, and the doors slide across in front of her.

Liv:

She then turns around and goes home and finds her husband's been

Liv:

cheating on her and her whole life, she ends up getting divorced and da.

Liv:

So she lives her life entirely differently to the one she would've lived, had those

Liv:

doors not closed on her at that time.

Liv:

So the whole point is around pivotal moments in your life, and are there

Liv:

any that stand out to you where you sometimes think I could have lived

Liv:

an entirely different life and I've gone a totally different route?

Caoimhe:

I think probably I would say there are probably two big ones for me.

Caoimhe:

The first one was moving from Belfast to Switzerland.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

At the end of my undergraduate degree.

Caoimhe:

I think if I had stayed in Belfast, my trajectory would've

Caoimhe:

been completely different.

Caoimhe:

. Massively different.

Caoimhe:

I would've been a completely different person.

Caoimhe:

I probably would've had a smaller outlook on life.

Caoimhe:

And I don't mean a more small-minded, I just mean a more geographically

Caoimhe:

localized outlook on life.

Caoimhe:

I probably Northern Ireland at that stage, you had and a couple of my

Caoimhe:

cousins refer to me as Chandler Bing, cuz they haven't no clue what I do.

Caoimhe:

But Northern Ireland at that stage, I remember when we did careers at

Caoimhe:

school and they were looking at what you should be doing, and it was

Caoimhe:

basically doctor, dentist, nurse, teacher, lawyer, civil servant.

Caoimhe:

Anything outside of that didn't exist as a career.

Caoimhe:

That was not a thing.

Caoimhe:

So to have done, gone down the pathway that I had probably would've just been.

Caoimhe:

Just completely bizarre.

Caoimhe:

It just I know it was bizarre.

Caoimhe:

It just wasn't the norm.

Caoimhe:

And I know an awful lot of people within my kind of generation of

Caoimhe:

Northern Ireland have done some really very cool, weird and wacky things.

Caoimhe:

And I'm incredibly proud of everybody who did the thing that made them

Caoimhe:

happy and didn't necessarily worry.

Caoimhe:

And don't get me wrong, the people who went doctor, dentist, nurse teacher

Caoimhe:

civil, servant lawyer, brilliant.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Fantastic.

Caoimhe:

If that is what they want to do.

Caoimhe:

And they exactly lived their life in exactly what they wanted,

Caoimhe:

you know, hats off to you.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Fantastic.

Caoimhe:

I do not in any way mean to belittle those choices at all.

Caoimhe:

It's just that to come from a very Conservative culture in Northern

Caoimhe:

Ireland and one that was not necessarily known for breaking

Caoimhe:

out, doing weird and crazy things.

Caoimhe:

It makes me incredibly happy to see people from Northern Ireland be

Caoimhe:

represented as boundary breakers or as really pushing the boundaries of things.

Caoimhe:

And there's a huge amount going on in health tech in Northern Ireland at the

Caoimhe:

moment, which is very exciting to see.

Caoimhe:

And I get so proud because Northern Ireland's an incredible place and it's

Caoimhe:

it breeds a type of person that is very singular and pretty special to be honest.

Caoimhe:

And there's a sense of humor there that you don't find anywhere else in the world.

Caoimhe:

And I'm very proud to be from Northern Ireland.

Caoimhe:

I'm from Belfast and I'm very proud of the people who are doing

Caoimhe:

things on a world stage because it's such a tiny place as well.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

To see people go out and do things on a world stage that are.

Caoimhe:

Incredible.

Caoimhe:

It's, it really does make me incredibly proud to be Northern Irish.

Caoimhe:

But I think that if I'd have stayed there at the time I would've a very

Caoimhe:

different, they're very different.

Caoimhe:

I probably would've ended up married, there probably would've been children.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

Which is to me now super alien.

Caoimhe:

Like it's a super alien concept because I like children, but

Caoimhe:

I couldn't eat a whole one.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

And and they're fine with me, but I like them when they look like a potato

Caoimhe:

because they don't really do anything.

Caoimhe:

And I like them when you can start to rationalize with them.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

It's the in between bit.

Caoimhe:

It's the in between bit when they're sticky and noisy.

Caoimhe:

No, I'm good.

Caoimhe:

Thanks.

Caoimhe:

I'm totally good.

Caoimhe:

Thanks.

Caoimhe:

I know.

Caoimhe:

So I think that would've been a very different life for me if I'd stayed there.

Caoimhe:

So that was kind of inflection point number one.

Caoimhe:

And inflection point number two I think is this year, and I think in

Caoimhe:

five, 10 years I'll be able to tell you what that meant in my life and

Caoimhe:

what I did and how it was different.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

But I think that to, to basically walk away, and don't get me wrong, I.

Caoimhe:

I really enjoy being independent.

Caoimhe:

It's great at the moment, but are days when I'm busy going, oh,

Caoimhe:

I'm gonna live under a bridge cause nobody's gonna pay me.

Caoimhe:

You know yourself, you know, you know yourself, that you

Caoimhe:

suddenly go, oh it's really scary.

Caoimhe:

It's really scary, super scary.

Caoimhe:

So I, at the moment, I'm still living in the day-today.

Caoimhe:

Huh?

Caoimhe:

Bridge.

Caoimhe:

Huh?

Caoimhe:

No bridge.

Caoimhe:

Huh?

Caoimhe:

Bridge.

Caoimhe:

No bridge.

Caoimhe:

It's okay.

Caoimhe:

So I think, you know, in five years time when I can look back on

Caoimhe:

it with a little bit of distance and a little bit of perspective,

Caoimhe:

I'll be able to say, okay, no.

Caoimhe:

Right now I see what an impact that made on my life.

Caoimhe:

So those are, I would say probably the two big, yeah.

Caoimhe:

Inflection

Liv:

points.

Liv:

So the first thing I would say is, I think the Northern Irish thing is why

Liv:

we are in the same room rather than over the phone, because all my dad's

Liv:

family is all from Northern Ireland.

Liv:

My grandma, who I loved pieces Northern Irish.

Liv:

So yeah, I am totally with you in terms of the type of people,

Liv:

the Northern Ireland breeds.

Liv:

The other one as I, I like to think that in about five years time you'll

Liv:

be saying that your pivotal moment was doing this podcast when you realized

Liv:

that you had to then swim the channel.

Liv:

Oh, no.

Liv:

Had

Caoimhe:

forgotten about that already.

Caoimhe:

Oh yeah.

Caoimhe:

No.

Caoimhe:

Short attentions span.

Caoimhe:

Forgotten that one bit already.

Caoimhe:

Right.

Caoimhe:

But I

Liv:

think that brings us to the end of the of the episode.

Liv:

Cool.

Liv:

Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Liv:

It has been incredible to meet you in person.

Liv:

I cannot wait to hear about you swimming

Caoimhe:

the channel.

Caoimhe:

It's a lot of pressure.

Caoimhe:

I know I've done that to myself.

Caoimhe:

You totally have.

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Liv:

And I've just gone right

Caoimhe:

in there, haven't I?

Caoimhe:

Yeah.

Caoimhe:

You're not gonna forget that time.

Caoimhe:

Never

Liv:

will to.

Liv:

No.

Liv:

It's my claim today.

Liv:

Today.

Liv:

Win the podcast.

Liv:

I'm taking it.

Liv:

No, seriously.

Liv:

Thank you so

Caoimhe:

much.

Caoimhe:

Thank you very much for having me.

Caoimhe:

It was a real pleasure to chat.

Caoimhe:

And yeah I'm really very appreciative to be considered amongst some of the women

Caoimhe:

that you have interviewed previously.

Caoimhe:

There's some incredible people on that list.

Liv:

It's been an absolute pleasure to have you, and let's go do some karaoke.

Liv:

And that is it for another episode.

Liv:

Thank you so much for listening.

Liv:

Don't forget, you can now also join this girl Cam as a member where

Liv:

you'll get invited to join recording sessions, regular mentions on

Caoimhe:

the show,

Liv:

and discounted or free tickets to some live events.

Liv:

To find out more, head to patreon.com.

Liv:

This girl cam, finally, go to this girl come.com to subscribe to the show and get

Liv:

notified first about every new episode.

Liv:

You can also find every interview I've done in print and find out who

Liv:

my guest is for the following week.

Liv:

You can follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

Liv:

All under this girl Cam.

Liv:

Thanks again everyone.

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