In this episode of This Girl KAM, host Liv Nixon interviews Caoimhe Vallely-Gilroy, an independent advisor to pharma and life science companies. Caoimhe talks about her passion for patients’ rights and her focus on making life better for patients and enabling a healthier population. She also discusses her background, living abroad for almost 17 years, and accidentally falling into the pharma industry. This is a first for Liv, with the episode being recorded in person in an actual recording studio!
[00:01:25] Accidental career in pharma.
[00:03:39] Healthcare industry advancements.
[00:07:24] Scuba diving fears.
[00:11:05] Healthcare and preventative medicine.
[00:14:55] Personalised medicine and healthcare.
[00:19:55] Not fitting into a box.
[00:23:38] Top innovator in healthcare.
[00:28:19] AI is only as good.
[00:30:57] Personalisation in healthcare.
[00:35:47] Consumerising healthcare.
[00:38:29] Overplanning
[00:44:27] Swimming the English Channel.
[00:50:06] Singing and Musical Theatre.
[00:54:39] “Sliding Doors”
[00:56:03] Moving away from Belfast.
[00:59:44] Pivotal moments in life.
Transcript
Hello.
Caoimhe:Welcome to this girl.
Liv:Come where we chat to wonderful women doing fabulous things in pharma.
Liv:I'm Liv Nixon, and today I'm talking to Kiva Vallee Gilroy.
Liv:Previously Global Head of Digital Health and Therapeutics for Merck,
Liv:and now an independent advisor to pharma and life science companies.
Liv:Kiva is a passionate advocate for patients rights, a self-proclaimed
Liv:science nerd, and data enthusiast.
Liv:Kiva focuses her work on how she can make life better for patients
Liv:and enable a healthier population.
Liv:It took just a couple of minutes chatting on the phone with Kiva to know this was
Liv:an interview I wanted to do in person.
Liv:So here we are.
Liv:Kiva has flown over from her home in Germany.
Liv:I've jumped on a train down to London, and here we are, ready to do this.
Liv:So let's get going.
Liv:Hello, Kiva.
Liv:Welcome to the show.
Liv:Hi, Liv.
Liv:Thanks very much for having me.
Liv:You are very welcome.
Liv:This is a complete first for both of us, as we were just saying.
Liv:So I've never been in an actual real life recording studio before,
Liv:and I don't think you have either,
Caoimhe:have you?
Caoimhe:Yes, but a very long time ago and as part of a school choir.
Caoimhe:Okay.
Caoimhe:Really not part of this.
Caoimhe:It's not same?
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:Not quite the same, no.
Liv:Okay.
Liv:So to kick us off, Kiva, could you please tell us a little bit
Liv:about yourself and what you do?
Caoimhe:So, really interesting question cuz I never quite know how to answer that.
Caoimhe:So just a little bit about me.
Caoimhe:I'm from Northern Ireland originally but I've lived abroad for almost 17 years now.
Caoimhe:I've spent that entire time primarily in the life science and pharma industry.
Caoimhe:I accidentally fell into pharma to be perfectly honest with you.
Caoimhe:I didn't mean to do it.
Caoimhe:It just kind of, Got me on the way past, and I thought, oh yeah,
Caoimhe:okay, I'll have a go at that.
Caoimhe:But I moved, I left Belfast after I finished my undergraduate
Caoimhe:degree in genetics, and I moved to Basil in Switzerland to take up a
Caoimhe:postgraduate research fellowship at the Friedrich Me Institute.
Caoimhe:And essentially I spent an entire year in a lab realizing that I love
Caoimhe:science and I don't love the lab.
Caoimhe:And that's really where I thought, no I, this is not really my thing.
Caoimhe:And I was very lucky that I met a really cool Irish lady in Basel.
Caoimhe:And I don't actually remember how I met her but I, she turned out she
Caoimhe:was head of a a recruiting company.
Caoimhe:And so she then ended up getting me into an interview with Fisher Clinical
Caoimhe:Services and as a project manager and I.
Caoimhe:Took on that role in the end, and that was pretty much how I
Caoimhe:ended up in industry rather than in academia or in a lab setting.
Caoimhe:So I went straight into the project management, clinical development side of
Caoimhe:the life sciences and pharma industry.
Caoimhe:And I haven't really looked back.
Caoimhe:I think probably the best way to describe me is more of an opportunist, really.
Caoimhe:I have very short attention span and I like to be kept entertained
Caoimhe:and I get grumpy when I'm bored.
Caoimhe:So I I'm really interested.
Caoimhe:I lifelong learner.
Caoimhe:I really can't stop learning and I love to, to read and to
Caoimhe:learn more about what's going on.
Caoimhe:So I've kind of just moved through.
Caoimhe:The entire healthcare space into areas that really interest me.
Caoimhe:So having gone from early stage research development and I'm talking
Caoimhe:Polycom genes, body segmentation genes, right at the very early stuff of my
Caoimhe:career in the early research which has still never come to the light of day.
Caoimhe:So that's still, that still is a long time away from me into the clinic through to
Caoimhe:the actual clinical development stuff.
Caoimhe:So the clinical trials, the development of diagnostic tests and then in two digital
Caoimhe:and data, which for me kind of culminated as a a real intersection of all of the
Caoimhe:things that I really believe in that the healthcare industry should move to.
Caoimhe:And that was kind of really why I moved away from pure operations of
Caoimhe:clinical trials into, okay, we do that, but It's a super old process.
Caoimhe:It's very well regulated.
Caoimhe:It's very well no one, but it's not fit for purpose for what society needs.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And it's not fit for purpose, for the fact that technology and understanding
Caoimhe:of disease has massively outpaced our treatments and are able to develop
Caoimhe:and our approach to health in general.
Caoimhe:And I mean, I think one of the big things that came out of Covid that.
Caoimhe:I heard so many people say that it became too much of a buzzword for
Caoimhe:me is the health is your wealth.
Caoimhe:And to a certain extent that is a hundred percent correct, but
Caoimhe:right now it's still a buzzword.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:It's talking when people say that, they talk about it in a, okay, you've been
Caoimhe:fixed, so you were ill and now you've been fixed in, therefore it's back.
Caoimhe:But to me it was, well, why be broken in the first place?
Caoimhe:Why not start from the position of let's not let you get sick?
Caoimhe:. First.
Caoimhe:And so for me, all of the clinical development stuff, all of the digital
Caoimhe:and data stuff is really leaning towards where I believe very wholeheartedly
Caoimhe:that the healthcare industry need to go.
Caoimhe:So that's kind of just me in from a work perspective in a nutshell.
Caoimhe:Outside of work I mainly work.
Caoimhe:That's probably where we are.
Caoimhe:And I think, you know, people say, you know, if you.
Caoimhe:If you get a job you love, you never work a day in your life.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Am I allowed to swear on this podcast?
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Well, I can always understand bullshit, not bullshit.
Caoimhe:That's all I have to say to that one.
Caoimhe:Or bollocks depending on my mood at the time, because essentially what
Caoimhe:happens is you get a job that you love, you get passionate about it, and
Caoimhe:you work all of the hours in the day.
Caoimhe:So, it is really this doesn't count.
Caoimhe:So yeah, I work an awful lot because I love what I do.
Caoimhe:I am working very hard on changing that perspective.
Caoimhe:I would like to move towards living and not just existing.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I have a cat who probably saved my sanity during Covid.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I live in Germany, so it was a very, I isolating experience to be
Caoimhe:away from friends and found I have.
Caoimhe:Friends in Germany, obviously, but to be away from family.
Caoimhe:And I come from quite a large Irish family.
Caoimhe:So we are tend to be in each other's business quite a lot.
Caoimhe:And to have been away from that and to have had several Christmases
Caoimhe:where my mother, who is the Christmas ferry you could have sworn that
Caoimhe:the world had ended because we weren't having Christmas properly.
Caoimhe:To be away from that was quite isolating.
Caoimhe:So to have a ginger cat who has one brain cell and is an absolute idiot,
Caoimhe:but very entertaining, probably saved my sanity, which means he is
Caoimhe:far more spoiled than he should be.
Caoimhe:. But I mean, it's a cat.
Caoimhe:How badly can you spoil a cat?
Caoimhe:He can what?
Caoimhe:He's not gonna be grow.
Caoimhe:He's not gonna grow up to be a dictator here.
Caoimhe:Uh, he It's all good.
Caoimhe:Yeah, and really that's kind of it.
Caoimhe:I love to dive.
Caoimhe:I'm scuba diver.
Caoimhe:Oh, really?
Caoimhe:I'm a recently qualified dive master, so I'm very proud of myself on that
Caoimhe:one, which allows me to, to assistant teach and to, to basically, if I ever
Caoimhe:decide to give up any form of life science and pharma, I can disappear
Caoimhe:off to the Caribbean and take tourists on nice dive dive guide nice tour.
Caoimhe:So that's essentially what I do mostly in my spare time.
Caoimhe:And I took that up even though I didn't want to.
Caoimhe:But a friend of mine.
Caoimhe:Convinced me to learn to dive because they wanted to go on a boat trip in Indonesia,
Caoimhe:live aboard dive trip in Indonesia.
Caoimhe:And she said to me, if you go on it, then it makes our tickets cheaper.
Caoimhe:And I said, I'm not sure how that works out for me cause I wasn't planning on
Caoimhe:spending that money to start off with.
Caoimhe:But I'm a bit of a sucker for boats.
Caoimhe:I really enjoy being on a boat and so it was a dive boat.
Caoimhe:It's a nice boat.
Caoimhe:I went on the boat and I had to learn to dive before I went, so Oh,
Liv:absolutely.
Liv:Petrifies me.
Liv:Oh, they're going under the, it's the, yeah, my husband was, did
Liv:it all when he was traveling and there's a qualified paddy . Yeah.
Liv:And and he goes, and I won't go with him.
Liv:I'll stay, you know, when we're on holidays and stuff like that and I just,
Caoimhe:I'm too scared.
Caoimhe:That's, I honestly, if you would've seen me learning to dive, you would've gone.
Caoimhe:That girl's never gone in the water.
Caoimhe:I learned to dive in Germany, so I live in Germany and I learned
Caoimhe:to dive in Germany and I live.
Caoimhe:At that stage I lived in Frankfurt.
Caoimhe:And as you can imagine, there's no sea near Frankfurt.
Caoimhe:Bit far to go to do your open water qualifications.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Which you have to do outside of a swimming pool.
Caoimhe:So in Germany you do them in a lake, right?
Caoimhe:No, I don't like lakes.
Caoimhe:No lakes are slimy.
Caoimhe:And muddy and things touch in it that have been there for a long time.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I'm not a big fan of Lake, so I was not what you would I was
Caoimhe:I said, I was very proficient.
Caoimhe:I was the world's best technical instruction diver as a learner
Caoimhe:because I knew everything in the book.
Caoimhe:That wasn't a problem.
Caoimhe:But you put me into the lake and I was having none of it.
Caoimhe:I was out.
Caoimhe:I something touched my foot, I was gone.
Caoimhe:This was the end of it.
Caoimhe:I was not doing this.
Caoimhe:And I think if you'd watched me then to now, you would've been like, no,
Caoimhe:there's no chance she's ever diving.
Caoimhe:I'm also quite claustrophobic.
Caoimhe:And for me, I just immediately thought no.
Caoimhe:I'm gonna hate diving.
Caoimhe:That's gonna make me feel claustrophobic.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I have an irrational fear of getting my shoulders stuck in a concrete pipe.
Caoimhe:It's irrational because I've never been in a concrete pipe and.
Caoimhe:Nor would I go in a concrete pipe underwater.
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:But yeah.
Caoimhe:Anyway, so, but I, it turned out actually I find diving once I'm on, once I got over
Caoimhe:the initial, I don't like lakes issue.
Caoimhe:I find diving quite pleasant.
Caoimhe:I find it very meditative because I learned to dive in German and my German's
Caoimhe:not as good as my English, right?
Caoimhe:So I have less words in my, in German.
Caoimhe:So when I'm underwater, I actually think in German.
Caoimhe:And because I know less words, I think less.
Caoimhe:And therefore I find it very relaxing.
Caoimhe:And I'm also, I think what kind of.
Caoimhe:Offset.
Caoimhe:The claustrophobia issue was, I'm blind in one eye, so I'm partially sided.
Caoimhe:Right.
Caoimhe:And I've always been blind in my right eye.
Caoimhe:So I don't have 3D vision.
Caoimhe:Everything looks like the Simpsons.
Caoimhe:To me.
Caoimhe:Everything's flat in 2d.
Caoimhe:Yes.
Caoimhe:Wow.
Caoimhe:And I, have you ever seen that episode of Father Ted where they go to the caravan?
Caoimhe:so basically Ted and Dougle are in the caravan and they're explaining,
Caoimhe:Ted is explaining to Dougle why the toy Kai is small, but the chii
Caoimhe:in the field also looks small.
Caoimhe:And he's saying to dougle, this one's small and this one's far away.
Caoimhe:So trying to explain the difference.
Caoimhe:So that's essentially how I've gone through life is that one's
Caoimhe:far away and if it's getting bigger then it's getting closer.
Caoimhe:It's getting closer.
Caoimhe:So.
Caoimhe:The, I actually, I worry that the vision would be an issue diving.
Caoimhe:And it turned out to be completely opposite.
Caoimhe:Everybody suffers with difference in depth perception in diving just because
Caoimhe:of the light refraction underwater.
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:So I was busy going, oh, this is just exactly the same as what I normally see.
Caoimhe:So, yeah.
Caoimhe:No way.
Liv:Right.
Liv:Okay.
Liv:We're totally digressing, aren't we already?
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:It's fine.
Liv:So talk to me about, you said obviously you're working.
Liv:An awful lot of the time because you're passionate about what you do.
Liv:Tell me about your passions and your values and your, the things that motivate
Liv:you that keep you going, doing what you
Caoimhe:do.
Caoimhe:Okay.
Caoimhe:I'm aware we only have a certain length of time, so I will try and keep to that.
Caoimhe:I think one of the things that, that I almost struggle with is that I, it
Caoimhe:would, my life would be a so much easier if I had one very distinct passion
Caoimhe:as opposed to a spectrum of passions.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I think it's the best way to describe it.
Caoimhe:All of my, my, all of my passion is around, Healthcare
Caoimhe:and providing healthcare.
Caoimhe:And I mean, and I always stress healthcare because I think at the moment, the way the
Caoimhe:industry is set up and the way our society is set up is that we don't do healthcare.
Caoimhe:We do sick care.
Caoimhe:. And for me that is just not right.
Caoimhe:And I feel it's unethical as well to do it that way.
Caoimhe:So that's kind of my overarching mean passion is it's not about
Caoimhe:fixing something whenever there's a, an issue or an emergency.
Caoimhe:It's about how do we empower people with an understanding of their own health
Caoimhe:an early warning system to address things before they become a problem
Caoimhe:so that they can live people, live their lives in the way that is most
Caoimhe:reflective of what they want to do.
Caoimhe:So I'm a big.
Caoimhe:Believer in everybody having autonomous ownership of their own health data.
Caoimhe:And , I like the phrase, you know, autonomous ownership of your own health
Caoimhe:data to make decisions based on your life choices, based on your your lifestyle.
Caoimhe:And I think that's really important because I don't think we should
Caoimhe:have the right to dictate.
Caoimhe:We can swing on the very, on the other end of the spectrum and say, you know,
Caoimhe:well, you're gonna be penalized if you're a certain you know, if you don't do a
Caoimhe:certain number of steps a day, you're gonna be penalized if you're a certain
Caoimhe:weight or you're gonna be penalized.
Caoimhe:I think we can swing far too far the other side of it and say,
Caoimhe:you know, this is what health is.
Caoimhe:You must remain within that.
Caoimhe:And I don't believe that's what health is.
Caoimhe:I believe what health is about high people, and it is people
Caoimhe:because it's about everybody high.
Caoimhe:Everybody can be empowered to be at a level in their lives that they can
Caoimhe:do the things that they love to do and that they can contribute in the
Caoimhe:way that they feel passionate about.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And so for me, it That's super important.
Caoimhe:And how we do it is then suddenly when that spectrum breaks out
Caoimhe:for me and all of the different things become incredibly important.
Caoimhe:Like I hugely passionate about women's health.
Caoimhe:I'm massively passionate about preventative healthcare.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Early intervention, I'm a huge believer in how do we change the pharma industry
Caoimhe:so that we stop looking at reactive drugs and we look at early interventions,
Caoimhe:and that's a change in entire change in the business model of pharma because
Caoimhe:essentially you're then having to turn around and say, well, I need to convince
Caoimhe:you to start developing treatments that essentially if they work, you never
Caoimhe:see that they work because you never see the progression in the patient.
Caoimhe:And so that that's a very hard sell to say ESP to regulators as well.
Caoimhe:You know, this patient, this person.
Caoimhe:Could potentially develop this.
Caoimhe:So we're gonna give them this so that they never develop it.
Caoimhe:Yeah, cool.
Caoimhe:But you'll never know.
Caoimhe:You'll never know.
Caoimhe:So it's a really hard sell in that respect.
Caoimhe:But yeah, so, so it's a big wide spectrum of all the things that
Caoimhe:I'm really passionate about.
Liv:So, okay.
Liv:God, there's a lot to unpack there, isn't there?
Liv:, so is that then looking at digital health and what individuals, , rather
Liv:than saying the generic, this is how you have to do this number of steps.
Liv:Cause it's not the same for everyone.
Liv:So depending on how you want to live your life and the world that you live in.
Liv:We need to move to preventative medicine that is entirely bespoke to each
Caoimhe:individual.
Caoimhe:Yin, which is my f favorite German word, which means yes, no,
Caoimhe:at the same time, I like that.
Caoimhe:I think that in the utopian world, yes, we would be able to have, and
Caoimhe:if we unpack exactly what you said there is the difference between
Caoimhe:the early interventions, the actual therapies, there's behavioral change,
Caoimhe:there is managing risk factors.
Caoimhe:And understanding and identifying risk factors.
Caoimhe:And then there is the digital monitoring of people.
Caoimhe:So all of that, ideally in the utopian world would be delivered
Caoimhe:and micro and designed right down exactly to the individual.
Caoimhe:I'm slightly more realistic in that right now.
Caoimhe:I'm not entirely sure industrially we can do that.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Whether it is something that actually is a valid business model because realistically
Caoimhe:I do have to sit between the.
Caoimhe:The what is science fiction and what is a business is gonna be able to sustain?
Caoimhe:So how do we make those incremental changes where business is still available
Caoimhe:and sustainable as we move towards this idea of whether it is 3D printing,
Caoimhe:individual doses of your drug, whether it is understanding from longitudinal
Caoimhe:data collection points that different people are different metabolizers.
Caoimhe:So one drug might require 50% of the dose that in one person that it may
Caoimhe:require in another person, and one person might metabolize that drug
Caoimhe:better in the morning versus one person might do it better in the evening.
Caoimhe:And so that's, that is, you know, the level of personalization
Caoimhe:that I believe we can get to.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I just don't think, I don't think we should attempt to
Caoimhe:boil the ocean immediately.
Caoimhe:We do need to go in, in small steps.
Caoimhe:I'd love to just go from one day to the next, from the standard
Caoimhe:of care to, this is an entirely personalized journey for you.
Caoimhe:But I think convincing people to do that is probably gonna be much harder
Caoimhe:than just me standing up and talking about how wonderful an idea it would be.
Caoimhe:So from that respect, yin I'll take a yin y.
Caoimhe:That's okay.
Caoimhe:Y quite like yin.
Caoimhe:I might adopt that.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Do It's a great word.
Caoimhe:It's a great word.
Liv:Okay.
Liv:So I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your move into
Liv:independent life and independent work.
Liv:So you were at Merck for a few years.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Novartis Roosh.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Both for that, so very much the big pharma world.
Liv:So talk to me a little bit about your decision to move away from that and
Liv:what motivated that Really totally
Caoimhe:accidental not deliberate at all, didn't mean to do it even slightly.
Caoimhe:Thought I was having a holiday.
Caoimhe:It's in so worst
Liv:holiday ever.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:It's the strangest
Caoimhe:holiday.
Caoimhe:So I, yes, like you said I worked at Merck for six years and I left
Caoimhe:erck at the end of December,:Caoimhe:And purely because my ambition and my passion essentially was not, I didn't,
Caoimhe:wasn't aligned specifically with the company's strategic goals at that stage.
Caoimhe:So we very amicably parted wise at the end of December.
Caoimhe:And I said, right, okay.
Caoimhe:So I thought, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take my time.
Caoimhe:I'm gonna find the right place.
Caoimhe:I want to find a home.
Caoimhe:So I'm very motivated by the environment that I work in and wanting to work in an
Caoimhe:environment where I feel like it's a home.
Caoimhe:, I wanted a group of similarly engaged and ambitious and directioned kind
Caoimhe:of individuals that had our culture that I really wanted to buy in.
Caoimhe:So I kind of sat back and I thought, right.
Caoimhe:Had lots of conversations.
Caoimhe:I had lots of conversations and I have to be very honest, I was getting
Caoimhe:more and more frustrated cuz I was having conversations with people and
Caoimhe:I'm, I've been incredibly fortunate in my career to have spanned quite a
Caoimhe:large chunk of the pharma value chain.
Caoimhe:I don't do manufacturing.
Caoimhe:Nobody asked me to do manufacturing.
Caoimhe:I don't know anything about it.
Caoimhe:And I'm quite happy to put my hands up and say not my thing at all.
Caoimhe:But I've done research.
Caoimhe:I've done clinical development, large chunks of all of it.
Caoimhe:And I've sat within a commercial organization and I've worked on commercial
Caoimhe:teams, so I have the ability to kind of go between those three big chunks.
Caoimhe:And I enjoy each of them without a shadow of a doubt.
Caoimhe:I think where the massive value is where they all link up.
Caoimhe:. So I was having these conversations with people and talking about, What my
Caoimhe:principles were and my thoughts were and my experiences were, and I was
Caoimhe:getting the same message every time.
Caoimhe:It was, this is fantastic.
Caoimhe:Like, yes, a hundred percent.
Caoimhe:We need your skillset, we need your background.
Caoimhe:We really want you.
Caoimhe:We just have no idea where to put you.
Caoimhe:And I said, what do you mean you had no idea where to put you?
Caoimhe:Well, you know, you have so many skills that we just don't
Caoimhe:know what area to put you into.
Caoimhe:And I thought, yeah, this is the big problem.
Caoimhe:I don't really wanna be in a box anymore.
Caoimhe:I just So you don't fit in a box.
Caoimhe:I don't fit in a box.
Caoimhe:And I've spent 17 years in the pharma industry squashing myself into that
Caoimhe:box and going, this is the only thing that makes me palatable is if I am
Caoimhe:willing to shrink myself down into very defined role and be in a box.
Caoimhe:And I just, that was a massive realization.
Caoimhe:And so I'd given myself these three months, and in the middle of
Caoimhe:January I had a conversation with a tech company that I had just been
Caoimhe:chatting backwards and forwards with.
Caoimhe:And I'd become friendly with the ceo and they were quite
Caoimhe:big in financial data security.
Caoimhe:And he had been at a couple of pharma conferences and we'd gone
Caoimhe:out for dinner and stuff and we'd chatted and I really like him.
Caoimhe:He's a really lovely guy and he's really passionate about data security
Caoimhe:and data privacy and how you.
Caoimhe:Used data to, to its fullest whilst protecting the data.
Caoimhe:So we'd been chatting around and he was really keen to get the company
Caoimhe:into healthcare and pharma industry.
Caoimhe:And he said would you consider coming, doing a project for us?
Caoimhe:A couple of months, three months, do a project, we'll pay you to have a look
Caoimhe:at our product to make suggestions about how that might be fitting
Caoimhe:into pharma and might be useful.
Caoimhe:And I said, yeah, that sounds fine.
Caoimhe:That sounds fun.
Caoimhe:And then suddenly I had five clients and I didn't know why I went from, I'll do this
Caoimhe:as a favor to a friend and because I like their product as well to having clients.
Caoimhe:Going across the spectrum from data security to data acquisition for
Caoimhe:synthetic control, alarms of clinical trials to genomics, testing for companion
Caoimhe:diagnostics to digital therapeutics company, to a an accelerator a government
Caoimhe:sponsored innovation accelerator.
Caoimhe:Wow.
Caoimhe:And suddenly I was like, oh, okay.
Caoimhe:I don't have to fit into a box right now because I can do all
Caoimhe:of the things that I like and I'm fulfilled in each of these individual
Caoimhe:companies, and that's okay right now.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:That's, that is where I'm stretched.
Caoimhe:I'm learning, which is super important to me.
Caoimhe:I'm challenged, which is also incredibly important to me.
Caoimhe:And I'm listened to, which I really like, because what I find in pharma
Caoimhe:is if you voice an opinion on something that is not within your
Caoimhe:job description, even if you have.
Caoimhe:The background in it.
Caoimhe:It's a little bit like, not for you.
Caoimhe:This is not what you're brought in to talk about.
Caoimhe:You're brought in to talk about this is what we've employed you to talk about.
Caoimhe:So being able to actually have people go oh, right, okay.
Caoimhe:That's really useful information.
Caoimhe:Was a massive confidence boost in a way.
Caoimhe:It was a real validation of, okay, I'm not insane.
Caoimhe:I do actually vaguely know what I'm talking about in
Caoimhe:all of these different areas.
Caoimhe:And so it was it's fun.
Caoimhe:It's a lot of fun.
Caoimhe:It was completely accidental.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Whether it lasts forever and ever, I don't know.
Caoimhe:Probably not.
Caoimhe:But it was it's something that, that gives me a lot of enjoyment at the moment.
Caoimhe:I was gonna
Liv:say, it's working
Caoimhe:for you now.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:So that's all that matters really.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Isn't it?
Caoimhe:And I get to work with, well, I work with a lot of startups and I love
Caoimhe:startups because startups are shiny.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Startups are shiny and new and they still believe they can change the world.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Cynicism hasn't been beaten in the startups yet, and I love it because
Caoimhe:it's such a real refreshing moment of the world is, you know, the
Caoimhe:world is, everything is possible.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And I get completely swept up in that.
Caoimhe:And the energy you get out of working with startups and scale-ups is
Caoimhe:just incredible and such a contrast
Liv:from Oh, yeah.
Liv:The big pharma world.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:I get that.
Liv:Totally.
Liv:So at the end of last year you were listed by Intelligent Health ai Yeah.
Liv:e of their top innovators for:Liv:Tell me a little about that.
Caoimhe:Well, I mean, I know about as much about it as you do.
Caoimhe:You know, like, like I said, I I presented, or I did a lot of
Caoimhe:presenting at conferences last year.
Caoimhe:And because I was in the position at that stage that I was really
Caoimhe:passionate about moving forward and moving healthcare forward.
Caoimhe:And I'm, believe it or not, you know, cuz this will come as a
Caoimhe:complete utter shock to you.
Caoimhe:I'm quite open with my opinions and I voice them.
Caoimhe:I know.
Caoimhe:You would never know.
Caoimhe:I'm so good at hiding it.
Caoimhe:I know.
Caoimhe:But you know, I'm I quite open with my opinions and I I will stand
Caoimhe:up and say what I think is right.
Caoimhe:What I think is moving forward.
Caoimhe:I do have, my favorite slide at the start of every single one of my
Caoimhe:presentations is a disclaimer slide, which says, I am not here representing
Caoimhe:anybody I work for, or any academic institution that I'm affiliated with.
Caoimhe:And all of these opinions are my own.
Caoimhe:And my final line on my slide is, and I reserve the right to change my opinion
Caoimhe:at any time when I've learned something new because I think it's super important
Caoimhe:because everything within the field that we work in, everything is it's so new and
Caoimhe:everything is changing at all times, that you can't afford to have a fixed mindset.
Caoimhe:You can't afford to say, this is how I know it.
Caoimhe:This is the way it's gonna be forever.
Caoimhe:I'm not gonna deviate away from this.
Caoimhe:You need to go in with a constant.
Caoimhe:Evolution of this is gonna change.
Caoimhe:It's gonna change.
Caoimhe:I need to be available.
Caoimhe:I need to learn from it because I need to give the best that I can for everything.
Caoimhe:So, yeah.
Caoimhe:And I'm not afraid to be wrong.
Caoimhe:I don't mind being wrong.
Caoimhe:Sorry.
Caoimhe:This is deviated from an intelligent health.
Caoimhe:That's why I asked.
Caoimhe:But basically I was doing a lot of presentation last year.
Caoimhe:That's where I came back to.
Caoimhe:And I was obviously giving my opinion an awful lot.
Caoimhe:And what I have to say, and I'm gonna be a little bit controversial here, and I do
Caoimhe:apologize for the people on these lists.
Caoimhe:I was having, it was in December of last year that I was named and I was
Caoimhe:having dinner with two friends of mine.
Caoimhe:And we were laughing because I think the day before the Forbes 40
Caoimhe:under 40 list had been released.
Caoimhe:And somebody had been put on it and we were like, We know that person and they
Caoimhe:don't really know what they're doing.
Caoimhe:And that's a really interesting thing.
Caoimhe:And then there was the whole discussion about, oh, these
Caoimhe:lists don't really mean anything.
Caoimhe:A lot of the lists are, you apply for them.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And you self nominated or Yes.
Caoimhe:Or you pay for them as well.
Caoimhe:So we were having this, we were laughing, and literally the next day I had a
Caoimhe:notification on my phone from LinkedIn and it was Ping, you know, you've
Caoimhe:been tagged in this LinkedIn post.
Caoimhe:And I was like, oh, well post, have, I've been tagged in by Intelligent Health.
Caoimhe:And I clicked on it and it was like, top 55 list.
Caoimhe:And I screenshotted it and I sent it to the boys and I said,
Caoimhe:I swear I didn't apply for this.
Caoimhe:I'm swear I had no idea this was happening.
Caoimhe:And it was just, it was so funny because it was the day after
Caoimhe:we'd had that exact conversation.
Caoimhe:So I have to say I was incredibly flattered.
Caoimhe:If you look at the list on it.
Caoimhe:There are some incredible people on it.
Caoimhe:Would I have necessarily put myself amongst those?
Caoimhe:I wouldn't have even considered or thought about it, but I'm incredibly.
Caoimhe:Incredibly flattered to have been considered amongst that list.
Caoimhe:Just for being, for standing up and saying whatever was in
Caoimhe:my head of the day at the time.
Caoimhe:Okay.
Liv:Well, let's talk more about what's in your head on the topic of AI then, because
Liv:we are in this huge period of change.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Massive disruption from the generative AI coming in at the end of last year.
Liv:Open, open ai.
Liv:Where do you, what are your opinions that you stood up and shared, around AI
Liv:and how it can benefit pharma or perhaps the areas that we need to watch out for.
Liv:What are your thoughts?
Caoimhe:Even more interesting is I would not classify myself as an AI specialist.
Caoimhe:I don't, I, I don't proclaim to know that I know how data can
Caoimhe:be leveraged to solve a problem.
Caoimhe:I don't know how it does it, but I know that it can be leveraged.
Caoimhe:I know I can identify the problem, I can identify what I
Caoimhe:want the solution to look like.
Caoimhe:I'm not necessarily the one that connects the problem to the solution via the
Caoimhe:AI or the, anything within that space.
Caoimhe:So I fully put my hands up and say, there are people out there that are
Caoimhe:bigger, better, and smarter than I am.
Caoimhe:When it comes to ai, I think the opinion that I have had about AI for a long
Caoimhe:time is that, first of all, it's a tool.
Caoimhe:It's an incredibly valuable tool if it's used right, but most
Caoimhe:importantly, AI is only as good as the data that goes into it.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And so for me, we can talk an awful lot about the sexy stuff, and you
Caoimhe:can throw out ai, machine learning, you know, big data, blah, blah, blah.
Caoimhe:You can, all of the buzzwords that, to be frank, pharma, love to
Caoimhe:throw around, love to throw around.
Caoimhe:But structurally, the data architecture, the data governance, the data quality
Caoimhe:and the amount of data points that you have available to generate the outcome
Caoimhe:of the, all of the AI you're using is equally valuable, but it's not as sexy.
Caoimhe:So some of the challenges that I've seen and faced in the past and I do
Caoimhe:whenever I talk to startups and things, and they're trying to push these
Caoimhe:incredible solutions and this is amazing.
Caoimhe:And I'm like yeah.
Caoimhe:Whoa.
Caoimhe:Let's dial it back a little bit.
Caoimhe:You don't want to essentially sync yourself and your credibility
Caoimhe:because at the end of the day, you are building models that people
Caoimhe:are gonna make decisions of.
Caoimhe:And within healthcare, you're building models that are go, people are gonna
Caoimhe:make either diagnos, diagnostic decisions, prognostic decisions.
Caoimhe:You're affecting people's lives and their treatment off of the
Caoimhe:algorithms and the products you build.
Caoimhe:And that's fantastic, as long as they've been trained correctly,
Caoimhe:that there's enough data that it is actually statistically significant.
Caoimhe:And so start with that.
Caoimhe:Start with your data and the value in that and the quality that comes out of that.
Caoimhe:The AI is the sexiness on the top.
Caoimhe:And it can do an ama, it can do amazing things, but rubbish in equals rubbish out.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And that's the important thing as well, that we tend to overlook.
Caoimhe:Yeah,
Liv:I would completely agree with that
Liv:. So where do you think then, and I
Liv:when you're speaking to companies , particularly in pharma and life sciences,
Liv:where do you think the industry needs to focus on over the coming years?
Liv:What do you think the priorities should be to get to the the vision that you hold
Liv:in terms of that preventative healthcare?
Liv:Yeah,
Caoimhe:I think so first of all, I think that it'll take more
Caoimhe:than just my thoughts on this.
Caoimhe:I think it'll take an awful lot more from people.
Caoimhe:I'll split it into two ways.
Caoimhe:I think society needs to change and I think business needs to
Caoimhe:change, and one will always follow the other, and depending on.
Caoimhe:Where the money goes is who, which goes first.
Caoimhe:So are we going to demand better as people and as a society, are we gonna
Caoimhe:demand better from our healthcare?
Caoimhe:Are we gonna demand the level of personalization that we have,
Caoimhe:personalization and digitalization that we have and have experienced from
Caoimhe:post, post the last number of years?
Caoimhe:You know, I use the example of I love crappy Hallmark movies.
Caoimhe:Hallmark Romcom Christmas movies on Netflix.
Caoimhe:I will watch every single one of them.
Caoimhe:And I know that, and I know I've watched every single one of them because my
Caoimhe:algorithm on Netflix shows me all the ones that I will want to watch.
Caoimhe:And you know what?
Caoimhe:I watch them and it is makes me very happy because I can switch off my brain
Caoimhe:and I can watch all of the formulaic, happy endings that are gonna happen.
Caoimhe:And everybody ends up having a lovely time and it's great.
Caoimhe:And I go away feeling a wee bit better because the world is lovely
Caoimhe:and nothing's challenged me in the hour and a half that I've sat down and
Caoimhe:actually relaxed for something now.
Caoimhe:Amazon and I have a very tumultuous relationship because they keep suggesting
Caoimhe:things for me and I keep buying them.
Caoimhe:So my bank account has fallen out with Amazon on numerous occasions and my
Caoimhe:house is full of bits of pieces of stuff, and I own more metal straws
Caoimhe:than any one single human should own.
Caoimhe:But yes, Amazon keeps suggesting products that I might like.
Caoimhe:And you know what?
Caoimhe:Amazon is quite right.
Caoimhe:They are very good at that.
Caoimhe:Very good at that.
Caoimhe:But why are we not demanding that from our healthcare?
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And wow, this is for me, is there's, there're gonna be two inflection points
Caoimhe:is either the world is gonna turn around, stand up and say, stop dictating
Caoimhe:to me what healthcare looks like.
Caoimhe:Stop dictating to me what my treatment plan or pathway should be.
Caoimhe:This is what I want.
Caoimhe:Pharma talk an awful good game on patient centricity and patient
Caoimhe:design, drug development, and patient centered, all of that jazz.
Caoimhe:But at the end of the day, are they asking them to develop the drug that is going to
Caoimhe:actually fix the problem with the patient?
Caoimhe:Or are they asking the patient to essentially give them the validation
Caoimhe:about bits of the drug pathway that they can still develop the
Caoimhe:same drug, but say, but we talk to patients and patients want this.
Caoimhe:And you know, that's gotta change.
Caoimhe:That's really gotta change.
Caoimhe:And I had a great conversation actually on Monday.
Caoimhe:I was in Basil and I was chatting to a Swiss hospital administrator and he
Caoimhe:was talking about how they're trying to discourage more specialization.
Caoimhe:So they're trying to get more in his general practice cuz specialization
Caoimhe:becomes within the hospital system becomes quite expensive and they're
Caoimhe:always booked up and things like that.
Caoimhe:And he said, you know, we're really trying to look at.
Caoimhe:How we change that around and look at how we, we make sure that we are
Caoimhe:delivering what patients need and and not just providing solutions to people
Caoimhe:because we're finding that sometimes the solutions we provide actually
Caoimhe:make the patients' condition worse.
Caoimhe:And I said, well, I can understand that.
Caoimhe:And he said, but how can you understand that?
Caoimhe:You know, why does that make any sense?
Caoimhe:We fixed something, we've cured it.
Caoimhe:And I said, look, I'm blind in my right eye and I have been since birth.
Caoimhe:Everything is 2d.
Caoimhe:It would completely decimate my life if I suddenly have sight in my right eye.
Caoimhe:Because I wouldn't know how my depth perception would be off.
Caoimhe:Everything would change.
Caoimhe:My view of the world would change and I'm 37, it takes a long time to unlearn all
Caoimhe:of the things that I have learned Yeah.
Caoimhe:At that stage.
Caoimhe:So my coping mechanisms would be completely off the
Caoimhe:chart and all over the place.
Caoimhe:What is important to me is not regaining or getting the sight in my right eye.
Caoimhe:What is important to me is preventing the loss in my left eye.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:That's important to me.
Caoimhe:Not developing a cure or a treatment for my current vision,
Caoimhe:but preventing that changing.
Caoimhe:And so that's where we need to start looking at is that push.
Caoimhe:Where does that initial push come from?
Caoimhe:Where pharma and drug development and therapeutic, I'm gonna say therapeutic
Caoimhe:development, starts to shift towards.
Caoimhe:What is the thing that the patient really wants and needs?
Caoimhe:And how do we look at, instead of desperately trying to fix something,
Caoimhe:like I've said, how do we make sure that the standard of life and
Caoimhe:condition that the patient is used to, likes and wants is maintained?
Caoimhe:And if the money, if the business models come into place where that is actually
Caoimhe:financially viable to do, and whether it is pushed from regulators, whether
Caoimhe:it is pushed from the government, whether it is pushed from the consumers.
Caoimhe:I'm gonna say something that a lot of people hate me saying We
Caoimhe:need to consumerize healthcare, and I don't mean in the way that.
Caoimhe:It's consumerized like apple or consumerized, like Google or consumerized.
Caoimhe:Like you, you go to a supermarket and you buy whatever you want.
Caoimhe:It's not what I mean about consumerization.
Caoimhe:We need to treat patients as consumers, as the end users.
Caoimhe:Because at the moment, that's not what healthcare with pharma does.
Caoimhe:Pharma's end users are the prescribers, and that's the you're taking away the
Caoimhe:par and the ownership from the end users.
Caoimhe:And the end users are the patients.
Caoimhe:So they're the ones that actually have to take the medication that is
Caoimhe:designed for them, take the therapeutics that are designed for them, so
Caoimhe:they should have a say and in what.
Caoimhe:What is developed for them, they should have a say in how that makes
Caoimhe:them feel, how they're affected by it.
Caoimhe:We need to consumerize health and treat the patients as having the
Caoimhe:par to determine what is their view of health and determine how
Caoimhe:they want to live their life.
Caoimhe:Yeah,
Liv:it's almost like, so pharma is always set up to be b2b, isn't it?
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:And it's B2C really.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:When you talk about like that, it is it's actually you're focusing on
Liv:an individual, not an organization.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:That makes so much sense.
Liv:So you are a sports fanatic, tell me a little bit about that and more
Liv:importantly, tell me how on earth you balance that in your life.
Caoimhe:Okay, so that's super, I'll start with the second part of it.
Caoimhe:Currently, I don't balance it.
Caoimhe:It's the age old question of, you know, how do you develop a work-life balance?
Caoimhe:And people ask me, what is my work-life balance?
Caoimhe:And I say, yes, I have a work life that, and then I stop.
Caoimhe:And like I said earlier on, that need, that massively needs to change.
Caoimhe:And I am a believer of that myself.
Caoimhe:I'm really trying to put in place that And I'm gonna say, I'm gonna
Caoimhe:commit to something and I'm gonna commit to it on a recording.
Caoimhe:Yes.
Caoimhe:So I can't go back on it.
Caoimhe:And I'm going to, I'm really gonna live to regret this, but I'm gonna have to do it.
Caoimhe:I'll get to that in a second.
Caoimhe:But yeah I'm really trying to commit to living rather than existing.
Caoimhe:And living in the moment, I am the nightmare when it
Caoimhe:comes to planning things.
Caoimhe:I plan everything down to the N degree.
Caoimhe:I have spreadsheets.
Caoimhe:I have more spreadsheets than anyone human in the world should ever have.
Caoimhe:And I love spreadsheets.
Caoimhe:And I mean, to the extent where I keep a.
Caoimhe:Birthday and Christmas present spreadsheets and have done for years.
Caoimhe:Oh my God.
Caoimhe:I love that.
Caoimhe:And I add people to it.
Caoimhe:And during the year, I just go through and if I see something that I think someone
Caoimhe:might like, I put it on the spreadsheet.
Caoimhe:Oh my God.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Oh my God.
Caoimhe:And when I go places, I plan
Liv:everything.
Liv:I love this.
Liv:Oh, it's not good though
Caoimhe:because I shouldn't love it, but I didn't.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:But what I noticed over the last, I was fine with it up until the last couple
Caoimhe:of years when I noticed that I wasn't enjoying the thing as I was doing it.
Caoimhe:I was busy going, yep, okay, come on.
Caoimhe:We need to go to the next thing.
Caoimhe:Because it's planned into the schedule that we do the
Caoimhe:next thing at the next time.
Caoimhe:We're running behind, I was running everything like project meetings.
Caoimhe:Like I was going on holiday with people going, okay, come on next.
Caoimhe:Move.
Caoimhe:Yes, let's go.
Caoimhe:Dinner's booked at 7, 6 53.
Caoimhe:Come on, it's a seven minute walk.
Caoimhe:Let's go.
Caoimhe:So, and I just, I wasn't enjoying where I was at the moment at the at in the moment.
Caoimhe:And so that's something that.
Caoimhe:I'm working to try and fix I to do that I'm doing things like I've just
Caoimhe:got the most incredible new apartment.
Caoimhe:So I move house next month.
Caoimhe:Why?
Caoimhe:I thought that was a good idea in the middle of starting up an
Caoimhe:independent consultancy company.
Caoimhe:I don't know, but I decided that was what I was gonna do and I've
Caoimhe:got a beautiful new apartment.
Caoimhe:I'm really excited to get in.
Caoimhe:It's going to, it's just gonna make me, it's gonna make my life better and
Caoimhe:it's gonna be fun and quirky and I'm gonna have plenty of space for guests.
Caoimhe:I'm gonna have plenty of space for an office that I can work in comfortably.
Caoimhe:And not that I'm ever in, that's cuz I'm traveling all the time.
Caoimhe:But, you know, I'll build a cat corner for the cat.
Caoimhe:And it'll be fine and I'll, but I'll feel like a home.
Caoimhe:I'll feel like I've really settled in a home as opposed to a house.
Caoimhe:Cause I live in houses.
Caoimhe:And I think for the last number of years I've really lived in houses.
Caoimhe:I've existed in houses as opposed to living in a home.
Caoimhe:So I'm building my own home, a little nest of comfort and happiness, and
Caoimhe:I'm gonna buy myself a pink smeg fridge as my, oh my God, ward.
Caoimhe:Oh, I'm so excited.
Caoimhe:So excited.
Caoimhe:So, yeah, so that's essentially my answer to that.
Caoimhe:I don't have a work life balance at the moment, but I'm working on it
Caoimhe:with regards to sport, and this is where I'm gonna commit to something.
Caoimhe:I was just gonna
Liv:say, what are you gonna commit to?
Liv:I'm gonna
Caoimhe:commit to something I've played sport.
Caoimhe:I I love sport.
Caoimhe:I like doing it because I'm highly competitive.
Caoimhe:I am highly competitive.
Caoimhe:For a very long time, we weren't allowed to play board games as
Caoimhe:children because it always ended.
Caoimhe:Were too competitive and always ended in awry.
Caoimhe:So I didn't really, so I didn't really grow up and we didn't play cards.
Caoimhe:Like, and when I dive on the dive boat, in between dives, you tend to play cards.
Caoimhe:I knew Snap and that was pretty much the end of my card knowledge.
Caoimhe:And I've had to be taught card games and I am.
Caoimhe:Worst card player.
Caoimhe:Cause I get I both love and hate rules and I enforce them like nobody's business.
Caoimhe:I'm like, no, you've cheated.
Caoimhe:No, it's, you're not allowed it.
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:So I'm super competitive, hyper competitive.
Caoimhe:So I did, I played a lot of sport as a kid because I could be competitive
Caoimhe:and I played sport and I played rugby.
Caoimhe:I played rugby at a time in Northern Ireland where rugby for
Caoimhe:girls was only just taking off.
Caoimhe:And I was a complete utter enforcer on the pitch.
Caoimhe:So I, I.
Caoimhe:I'm tall and I'm broad and I'm very strong and I, running into me was like
Caoimhe:running into a brick wall and I was, when I started running, I'm actually, at
Caoimhe:the time, I'm, I was deceptively quick.
Caoimhe:Nobody really thought when I started to tr that it was actually
Caoimhe:gonna go anywhere at speed.
Caoimhe:But I'm deceptively quick and and I'm like a freight train.
Caoimhe:I'm completely not a runaway freight train.
Caoimhe:I'm very difficult to stop on a rugby pitch, haven't played rugby in a number of
Caoimhe:years cuz I, I ended up being quite badly injured and broke my ankle quite badly.
Caoimhe:But I just loved sport.
Caoimhe:I loved being part of a team.
Caoimhe:I loved, I loved being good at something.
Caoimhe:I think that was really I excelled at sports, so I enjoyed it.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And yeah, so I, it was such a serious part of my identity for a
Caoimhe:very long time as well, that when and I'd made a commitment, so I.
Caoimhe:Played rugby.
Caoimhe:I was involved in athletics.
Caoimhe:I, I competed an awful lot and I absolutely loved it.
Caoimhe:And then I, after I broke my ankle, I was sent by my physio
Caoimhe:at the time to do CrossFit.
Caoimhe:And he said to me, normally I would not send you to do CrossFit.
Caoimhe:I don't agree with CrossFit.
Caoimhe:CrossFit's not good, CrossFit bad, but it's very bad for people who are injured.
Caoimhe:And it's very bad for people who are injured and hyper competitive.
Caoimhe:But I don't trust you on your own to not do something stupid cuz you'll get bored.
Caoimhe:And my physio knew me very well and he said, I'm sending
Caoimhe:you to CrossFit in Cambridge.
Caoimhe:At that stage I was living in Cambridge.
Caoimhe:I'm handing you CrossFit because my brother works there
Caoimhe:and my best friend owns it.
Caoimhe:And I have warned them about you, Uhhuh.
Caoimhe:And I have to say he really did warn them because they watched me like a hawk.
Caoimhe:I was not allowed to do anything that wasn't specifically prescribed by him.
Caoimhe:But again, I loved it because, I was really strong.
Caoimhe:Now could I do a pull up?
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:Could I?
Caoimhe:Did I want to do a burpee?
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:Oh my God, no.
Caoimhe:Did I have any interest in ever doing a muscle up?
Caoimhe:Not even slightly.
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:Weightlifting excelled at it immediately.
Caoimhe:Yeah, I'm strong.
Caoimhe:So it, to me that was like fun.
Caoimhe:Great.
Caoimhe:I'm good at this.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:So I'm topping the leaderboard, which means it's seriously motivating for me.
Caoimhe:And so I really got into the weightlifting side of things and I started to
Caoimhe:train quite seriously about it.
Caoimhe:And I thought, cuz I like to have a goal.
Caoimhe:I thought, well, not many weightlifters in Northern Ireland.
Caoimhe:There are now, there's a much, much bigger weightlifting
Caoimhe:community in Northern Ireland.
Caoimhe:There were than there were at that stage.
Caoimhe:And I thought, oh, I can maybe train for the Commonwealth Games, see if I can try
Caoimhe:and qualify for the Commonwealth Games.
Caoimhe:And so I did until Covid hit and then I was trapped inside my
Caoimhe:apartment working 17 hour days.
Caoimhe:And I just thought, look, I love this, but even I have to admit that I
Caoimhe:could continue to try and force this through, but it's just not gonna work.
Caoimhe:I can't commit to that level of training.
Caoimhe:And so I kind of had to give up on that.
Caoimhe:But my big commitment now, cuz I always have a goal and I know you're
Caoimhe:watching me with, I cannot wait for this very excited in my lunacy.
Caoimhe:I have decided, I decided this about two years ago and I have done
Caoimhe:absolutely nothing towards it as yet.
Caoimhe:Right.
Caoimhe:But I have decided that before my 40th birthday, I would
Caoimhe:like to swim the channel.
Caoimhe:Oh my God.
Caoimhe:Amazing.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:So I've, yeah.
Caoimhe:I like
Liv:You need to firm this up now.
Liv:No, you need to commit to it.
Liv:Yeah, you do.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Do you need to commit to it?
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:So, cause you just said you'd like to, I'd like to.
Liv:I, oh, I'm gonna firm you up.
Liv:Yeah, you are.
Liv:You're
Caoimhe:gonna, you're gonna meet me.
Caoimhe:Do it.
Caoimhe:You're gonna commit to it.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I, it gives me three years.
Caoimhe:It does.
Caoimhe:To swim the channel.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:So you're gonna do that?
Caoimhe:Yes.
Liv:You are gonna swim the channel?
Liv:Yes.
Liv:By what year then?
Liv:Right away.
Liv:2025.
Liv:2025?
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Okay.
Liv:So it's really just two and a half,
Caoimhe:3, 1, 3, 2 and a half?
Caoimhe:Yes.
Caoimhe:Okay.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:So, okay.
Caoimhe:th year, which can be up to:Caoimhe:Okay.
Caoimhe:To:Caoimhe:Well,
Liv:if you get sponsorship or anything like that or want any support on
Liv:that, I am here for this now because you have put your, you have laid it
Liv:down on this show, so I will support
Caoimhe:you however you need, and anybody who wants to sponsor me and
Caoimhe:laugh at an ex rugby player who should not be swimming the channel, swim in
Caoimhe:the channel, please feel free to do so.
Caoimhe:I will gladly set up some form of Instagram page of
Caoimhe:we'll do mockery of myself.
Caoimhe:Yep.
Liv:And even if I have to add it to the show notes
Liv:retrospectively, we will do that.
Liv:Now, if you would like to see,
Caoimhe:yeah, if you would like to see this really not
Caoimhe:work very well, but go for it.
Caoimhe:Tune in.
Caoimhe:Tune in.
Caoimhe:But please pay me lots of money.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:It'll definitely need to be for a charity.
Caoimhe:And I think it's quite a, it's quite a financial endeavor to actually
Caoimhe:swim the channel because I did a bit of looking into it originally.
Caoimhe:And you have to do things like hire safety crews and boats and
Caoimhe:things like that to follow you.
Caoimhe:Wow.
Caoimhe:So you know, you don't drown or be hit by a tanker.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Those are two very important things
Liv:to avoid.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Don't get hit by a tanker.
Liv:No, it's not
Caoimhe:worth that.
Caoimhe:Definitely wouldn't, I definitely wouldn't reach France by that stage.
Caoimhe:So,
Liv:so how are you gonna ba fit that into your life now then do, when we're talking
Liv:about, let's go back to work life balance.
Liv:Yeah.
Liv:Yeah.
Caoimhe:How are you gonna make that work?
Caoimhe:Yeah, that's, it's another commitment I have to make.
Caoimhe:You're gonna need an Excel spreadsheet.
Caoimhe:Oh.
Caoimhe:There's a hundred percent gonna be an Excel spreadsheet somewhere.
Caoimhe:The new apartment that I have got is a three minute cycle away from
Caoimhe:an Olympic-sized swimming pool.
Caoimhe:Nice.
Caoimhe:So I think I am going to need to spend an awful lot of time in the
Caoimhe:Olympic swim size swimming pool.
Caoimhe:Do you know what's terrifying and what's hideous?
Caoimhe:And you're gonna love this.
Caoimhe:I'm gonna have to swim in lakes.
Caoimhe:Oh.
Caoimhe:Oh, no.
Caoimhe:Oh, you are?
Caoimhe:Yes.
Caoimhe:I am gonna have to swim in lakes.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Oh yeah, you are.
Caoimhe:I am.
Caoimhe:Am There's no getting away from that.
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:And I'm gonna have to, and I, cuz I am a nightmare in that I am very proficient
Caoimhe:in the breast stroke, but and I'm very good at 50 meters front crawl.
Caoimhe:Because it, I can't breathe, but I can get 50 meters without having to breathe.
Caoimhe:So I can get to the other end of the pool, but then I'm like, now I'm dead.
Caoimhe:So I'm going to need to get, so anybody out there who knows a good swimming coach
Caoimhe:that could teach me to front crawl Okay.
Caoimhe:For endurance swimming.
Caoimhe:Get in touch.
Caoimhe:Get in touch.
Caoimhe:I will take any tips.
Caoimhe:Yes.
Caoimhe:I'll take any advice from anybody.
Caoimhe:Preferably advice that is useful.
Caoimhe:That would be good.
Caoimhe:Not just don't do it.
Caoimhe:Don't, I mean, you can give me that advice, but I'm pigheaded
Caoimhe:enough to go, well, that's
Liv:just made me wanna do it.
Liv:Well, I've said,
Caoimhe:yeah.
Caoimhe:So any advice that anybody can give on that?
Caoimhe:I think, yeah.
Caoimhe:It's well received.
Caoimhe:Yes.
Caoimhe:Okay.
Caoimhe:Well you are being held to that now.
Caoimhe:You know that, don't you?
Caoimhe:Fantastic.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Okay.
Caoimhe:Just
Liv:so you're aware of that.
Liv:Okay.
Liv:Okay.
Liv:So when we first spoke, , you told me that you were the quiet kid
Liv:when you were in school, or you were quite reserved in school.
Liv:Is
Caoimhe:that right?
Caoimhe:I think I was quite, no, I, I think I was the daydreamer.
Caoimhe:I think that's what I, I said I spent a lot of time in my own head at school.
Caoimhe:I would love to know.
Caoimhe:I don't really I'm not super close to the people I went to school with any longer.
Caoimhe:I'm much closer to people I went to university with.
Caoimhe:Because by that stage I kind of felt a little bit more me.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I can't say I loved school very much.
Caoimhe:I loved the academic side of it.
Caoimhe:I really loved the learning side of it.
Caoimhe:I didn't necessarily love the environment that I was in the politics of.
Caoimhe:I know politics, then I went into pharma.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Cause that has less politics.
Caoimhe:I don't know.
Caoimhe:I just, I didn't love school.
Caoimhe:You know, people, some people say, you know, school days is
Caoimhe:the best days of your life.
Caoimhe:Nah, not for me.
Caoimhe:Thanks very much.
Caoimhe:I'm good.
Caoimhe:I'd rather never go anywhere near it, ever again.
Caoimhe:So I don't know what other people's perception of me was at school, but my
Caoimhe:self perception at school was that I spent a lot of time in my head And I kind of
Caoimhe:just I wouldn't have said I was popular.
Caoimhe:I wouldn't have said I was unpopular.
Caoimhe:I just kind of drifted between kind of different friend groups.
Caoimhe:Again, no box.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:You know, I drifted between the academic crowd and the sports crowd and I
Caoimhe:spent a, like I was said earlier on, I was in school choir, I was involved
Caoimhe:in school musicals quite a lot.
Caoimhe:So I kind of drifted between all types of different groups within
Caoimhe:school and yeah, I probably didn't, I don't think I came into myself.
Caoimhe:I don't think I came into knowing and myself as a human being and being
Caoimhe:comfortable in my own skin until I was probably in my early thirties anyway.
Caoimhe:So I think my self perception of me at school was probably that I wasn't
Caoimhe:massively happy and I just didn't really.
Caoimhe:Want to be there an awful lot of the time.
Caoimhe:And so I daydreamed a lot.
Caoimhe:Because I could escape inside my own head and think about things.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I get that.
Caoimhe:Yep.
Liv:Do you still, are you still involved with singing now?
Liv:Do you do any, are you in a choir or anything?
Liv:My mother would
Caoimhe:love to say that I do an awful lot more because she likes
Caoimhe:to remind me that they spent a fortune on singing lessons for me.
Caoimhe:I do still sing.
Caoimhe:Yes.
Caoimhe:I, part of my work life balance Yeah.
Caoimhe:Is to find a choir in Germany that I can join.
Caoimhe:When I lived in Basil, I lived in Basil for about seven years.
Caoimhe:I was very involved in the Basel English Theater Group, which is a fantastic group.
Caoimhe:And we did rent and I was involved in that.
Caoimhe:And we got involved in the Panto Society as well.
Caoimhe:Oh my God.
Caoimhe:Amazing.
Caoimhe:So, and I loved Panto because it was just completely off the wall.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And we had a couple of years we were, had a really good musical director and
Caoimhe:who was willing to do things a little bit, so a little bit off the wall.
Caoimhe:And there was another guy there at the time actually Anthony who's he's
Caoimhe:really good at a talent acquisition for a new nutrition company.
Caoimhe:But at that stage, he was doing He, he took some time off to go and do a
Caoimhe:master's in musical theater in London.
Caoimhe:And so he and I were kind of batting backwards and forwards
Caoimhe:what we could potentially do.
Caoimhe:That was fun.
Caoimhe:And we ended up doing, he played the Panto Dam and we ended up doing
Caoimhe:the a song from Spam alo amazing.
Caoimhe:In, in the break while they were, you know, changing the scenery behind
Caoimhe:the curtain and things like that.
Caoimhe:And including he, we got very over enthusiastic at one stage and he
Caoimhe:spun me off the stage and I ended up like, falling into the orchestra pit.
Caoimhe:But yeah, I haven't done it.
Caoimhe:I haven't had a chance or kind of done it since I lived in Basil.
Caoimhe:And I'd really like to do it again because it's, I think it's another facet of
Caoimhe:me that kind of needs to be exercised, otherwise it gets a bit, yeah, get itchy.
Caoimhe:So my per neighbors in my current apartment have heard me saying
Caoimhe:upper, at the top of my lungs.
Caoimhe:11:00 AM in the morning or 8:00 PM at night.
Caoimhe:And I have to say bless German engineering that the insulation
Caoimhe:is very good in German apartments.
Caoimhe:So we just have to see how good the insulation is in the new apartment.
Caoimhe:Oh, amazing.
Caoimhe:Yeah, it's gross.
Caoimhe:Fingers crossed I don't make enemies in the new
Liv:apartment.
Liv:So if you could then go back, well, so there's a couple of questions now
Liv:that I've got to ask you before we wrap up and they're very much in line
Liv:with what we were just talking about.
Liv:So if you were to go back to the girl in high school Yeah.
Liv:Before, when as you say, you weren't really who you want, who you ended up
Liv:to be, what advice would you go back and give yourself if you could, knowing
Caoimhe:everything you now know?
Caoimhe:I think what I would probably say is stop beating yourself up.
Caoimhe:I am very self hypercritical.
Caoimhe:Self critical.
Caoimhe:Yep.
Caoimhe:I would probably say to her to, you know what, you are focusing on
Caoimhe:things and freaking out about things and having anxiety and stressing
Caoimhe:yourself out about things that other people haven't actually a, noticed
Caoimhe:or B cared about or c remembered.
Caoimhe:So stop beating yourself up about things.
Caoimhe:You know, if you think you've done something really bad,
Caoimhe:go and speak to the person.
Caoimhe:Have the guts to go inside of the person.
Caoimhe:I'm really sorry.
Caoimhe:I think I hurt you or I think I screwed up, or, I don't really know.
Caoimhe:And instead of being defensive or just stressing about it, just address it.
Caoimhe:I think my, the biggest learning I have is that if you just nip
Caoimhe:it in the bud before you end up stressing about it, it's a much, much
Caoimhe:healthier way of dealing with things.
Caoimhe:Cuz they may turn around and be like, actually no, I have no idea.
Caoimhe:I have no idea what you're talking about.
Caoimhe:Or, oh, that, oh, that was a throwaway comment.
Caoimhe:I didn't even pay attention.
Caoimhe:Or I didn't take it to heart.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:But I think I, I probably would say nip it in the bud.
Caoimhe:Don't stress about things and be open to apologize.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I think that's super important.
Caoimhe:Just say, look, I'm really sorry, I didn't mean it, it doesn't excuse
Caoimhe:it, but I'll do my best to be better.
Caoimhe:Other than that, I probably wouldn't.
Caoimhe:I.
Caoimhe:I would love to say, you know, don't let yourself be put into a box or, I think
Caoimhe:the perception, I felt that the perception of me in school or what I self perceived
Caoimhe:that other people may have perceived about me kind of wasn't who I was.
Caoimhe:I would love to say don't put yourself in a box and don't feel that way.
Caoimhe:But at the end of the day, you need to learn those lessons.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:You need to learn your own boundaries.
Caoimhe:You need to learn your own principles, your own integrity.
Caoimhe:And I don't think I could have done that, and I don't think I would be who I
Caoimhe:am now without having learned all that.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Liv:No, fair enough.
Liv:So the final question yes.
Liv:I have for you is about the movie Sliding Doors.
Liv:Yes.
Liv:Now, I know you said you haven't seen it, which actually now having spoken to you
Liv:about your love for romcom movies, I said, no, I can't believe you're gonna have
Caoimhe:not.
Caoimhe:But are they Hallmark or made by the Canadian Film Board?
Caoimhe:Because I'm very, very niche in my crappy romcom movies that I enjoy to watch.
Caoimhe:Fair enough.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:I have no idea in all on the, no, I
Liv:don't.
Liv:Okay.
Liv:So very quick overview of the movie , Gwyneth Paltrow it's
Liv:probably early nineties, this movie.
Liv:She goes out one day to work as she does every day.
Liv:Nine to five goes to get on the train.
Liv:She's running a little bit late.
Liv:I can't remember why, to be honest with I really should revisit the movie.
Liv:But anyway and I watch it.
Liv:I just let you know what
Caoimhe:Happens, yeah.
Caoimhe:To tell me.
Caoimhe:I'll
Liv:probably even get it all wrong when I tell people what the
Liv:whole premise of the movie is.
Liv:This totally wrong.
Liv:So she goes to get the train.
Liv:She misses the train, and the doors slide across in front of her.
Liv:She then turns around and goes home and finds her husband's been
Liv:cheating on her and her whole life, she ends up getting divorced and da.
Liv:So she lives her life entirely differently to the one she would've lived, had those
Liv:doors not closed on her at that time.
Liv:So the whole point is around pivotal moments in your life, and are there
Liv:any that stand out to you where you sometimes think I could have lived
Liv:an entirely different life and I've gone a totally different route?
Caoimhe:I think probably I would say there are probably two big ones for me.
Caoimhe:The first one was moving from Belfast to Switzerland.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:At the end of my undergraduate degree.
Caoimhe:I think if I had stayed in Belfast, my trajectory would've
Caoimhe:been completely different.
Caoimhe:. Massively different.
Caoimhe:I would've been a completely different person.
Caoimhe:I probably would've had a smaller outlook on life.
Caoimhe:And I don't mean a more small-minded, I just mean a more geographically
Caoimhe:localized outlook on life.
Caoimhe:I probably Northern Ireland at that stage, you had and a couple of my
Caoimhe:cousins refer to me as Chandler Bing, cuz they haven't no clue what I do.
Caoimhe:But Northern Ireland at that stage, I remember when we did careers at
Caoimhe:school and they were looking at what you should be doing, and it was
Caoimhe:basically doctor, dentist, nurse, teacher, lawyer, civil servant.
Caoimhe:Anything outside of that didn't exist as a career.
Caoimhe:That was not a thing.
Caoimhe:So to have done, gone down the pathway that I had probably would've just been.
Caoimhe:Just completely bizarre.
Caoimhe:It just I know it was bizarre.
Caoimhe:It just wasn't the norm.
Caoimhe:And I know an awful lot of people within my kind of generation of
Caoimhe:Northern Ireland have done some really very cool, weird and wacky things.
Caoimhe:And I'm incredibly proud of everybody who did the thing that made them
Caoimhe:happy and didn't necessarily worry.
Caoimhe:And don't get me wrong, the people who went doctor, dentist, nurse teacher
Caoimhe:civil, servant lawyer, brilliant.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Fantastic.
Caoimhe:If that is what they want to do.
Caoimhe:And they exactly lived their life in exactly what they wanted,
Caoimhe:you know, hats off to you.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Fantastic.
Caoimhe:I do not in any way mean to belittle those choices at all.
Caoimhe:It's just that to come from a very Conservative culture in Northern
Caoimhe:Ireland and one that was not necessarily known for breaking
Caoimhe:out, doing weird and crazy things.
Caoimhe:It makes me incredibly happy to see people from Northern Ireland be
Caoimhe:represented as boundary breakers or as really pushing the boundaries of things.
Caoimhe:And there's a huge amount going on in health tech in Northern Ireland at the
Caoimhe:moment, which is very exciting to see.
Caoimhe:And I get so proud because Northern Ireland's an incredible place and it's
Caoimhe:it breeds a type of person that is very singular and pretty special to be honest.
Caoimhe:And there's a sense of humor there that you don't find anywhere else in the world.
Caoimhe:And I'm very proud to be from Northern Ireland.
Caoimhe:I'm from Belfast and I'm very proud of the people who are doing
Caoimhe:things on a world stage because it's such a tiny place as well.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:To see people go out and do things on a world stage that are.
Caoimhe:Incredible.
Caoimhe:It's, it really does make me incredibly proud to be Northern Irish.
Caoimhe:But I think that if I'd have stayed there at the time I would've a very
Caoimhe:different, they're very different.
Caoimhe:I probably would've ended up married, there probably would've been children.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:Which is to me now super alien.
Caoimhe:Like it's a super alien concept because I like children, but
Caoimhe:I couldn't eat a whole one.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:And and they're fine with me, but I like them when they look like a potato
Caoimhe:because they don't really do anything.
Caoimhe:And I like them when you can start to rationalize with them.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:It's the in between bit.
Caoimhe:It's the in between bit when they're sticky and noisy.
Caoimhe:No, I'm good.
Caoimhe:Thanks.
Caoimhe:I'm totally good.
Caoimhe:Thanks.
Caoimhe:I know.
Caoimhe:So I think that would've been a very different life for me if I'd stayed there.
Caoimhe:So that was kind of inflection point number one.
Caoimhe:And inflection point number two I think is this year, and I think in
Caoimhe:five, 10 years I'll be able to tell you what that meant in my life and
Caoimhe:what I did and how it was different.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:But I think that to, to basically walk away, and don't get me wrong, I.
Caoimhe:I really enjoy being independent.
Caoimhe:It's great at the moment, but are days when I'm busy going, oh,
Caoimhe:I'm gonna live under a bridge cause nobody's gonna pay me.
Caoimhe:You know yourself, you know, you know yourself, that you
Caoimhe:suddenly go, oh it's really scary.
Caoimhe:It's really scary, super scary.
Caoimhe:So I, at the moment, I'm still living in the day-today.
Caoimhe:Huh?
Caoimhe:Bridge.
Caoimhe:Huh?
Caoimhe:No bridge.
Caoimhe:Huh?
Caoimhe:Bridge.
Caoimhe:No bridge.
Caoimhe:It's okay.
Caoimhe:So I think, you know, in five years time when I can look back on
Caoimhe:it with a little bit of distance and a little bit of perspective,
Caoimhe:I'll be able to say, okay, no.
Caoimhe:Right now I see what an impact that made on my life.
Caoimhe:So those are, I would say probably the two big, yeah.
Caoimhe:Inflection
Liv:points.
Liv:So the first thing I would say is, I think the Northern Irish thing is why
Liv:we are in the same room rather than over the phone, because all my dad's
Liv:family is all from Northern Ireland.
Liv:My grandma, who I loved pieces Northern Irish.
Liv:So yeah, I am totally with you in terms of the type of people,
Liv:the Northern Ireland breeds.
Liv:The other one as I, I like to think that in about five years time you'll
Liv:be saying that your pivotal moment was doing this podcast when you realized
Liv:that you had to then swim the channel.
Liv:Oh, no.
Liv:Had
Caoimhe:forgotten about that already.
Caoimhe:Oh yeah.
Caoimhe:No.
Caoimhe:Short attentions span.
Caoimhe:Forgotten that one bit already.
Caoimhe:Right.
Caoimhe:But I
Liv:think that brings us to the end of the of the episode.
Liv:Cool.
Liv:Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Liv:It has been incredible to meet you in person.
Liv:I cannot wait to hear about you swimming
Caoimhe:the channel.
Caoimhe:It's a lot of pressure.
Caoimhe:I know I've done that to myself.
Caoimhe:You totally have.
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Liv:And I've just gone right
Caoimhe:in there, haven't I?
Caoimhe:Yeah.
Caoimhe:You're not gonna forget that time.
Caoimhe:Never
Liv:will to.
Liv:No.
Liv:It's my claim today.
Liv:Today.
Liv:Win the podcast.
Liv:I'm taking it.
Liv:No, seriously.
Liv:Thank you so
Caoimhe:much.
Caoimhe:Thank you very much for having me.
Caoimhe:It was a real pleasure to chat.
Caoimhe:And yeah I'm really very appreciative to be considered amongst some of the women
Caoimhe:that you have interviewed previously.
Caoimhe:There's some incredible people on that list.
Liv:It's been an absolute pleasure to have you, and let's go do some karaoke.
Liv:And that is it for another episode.
Liv:Thank you so much for listening.
Liv:Don't forget, you can now also join this girl Cam as a member where
Liv:you'll get invited to join recording sessions, regular mentions on
Caoimhe:the show,
Liv:and discounted or free tickets to some live events.
Liv:To find out more, head to patreon.com.
Liv:This girl cam, finally, go to this girl come.com to subscribe to the show and get
Liv:notified first about every new episode.
Liv:You can also find every interview I've done in print and find out who
Liv:my guest is for the following week.
Liv:You can follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.
Liv:All under this girl Cam.
Liv:Thanks again everyone.