This Girl KAM with Lucy George

Lucy is training to run the London Marathon to raise money for Whizz Kids in April 2023. The link to her Just Giving page is shared at the end of the interview.

Liv: Hi Lucy, welcome to the show. How are you?

Lucy: I am good. I’m cold today, like a lot of people in the UK! I also have a house full of children and dogs. We got an email from the school at 7:00 AM this morning as expected it snowed overnight so they are closed.
I’ve got, an 11-year-old and a 13 year old at home, cooped up. And my dog who is super energetic, also cooped up and my husband also trying to work from home today!
So, the juggling act continues!

Liv: Okay. the purpose of today is just to get to know a little bit about you. I’ve done a lot of Googling of you over the last couple of weeks! You have had some fantastic roles, very relevant now in the climate that we’re in. So I’m fascinated by that, but beyond all of that, as this is a podcast aimed at supporting women in the pharmaceutical industry, I’m keen to get to know a little bit about the person behind the LinkedIn profile. The decisions that you’ve made along the way that have brought you to where you are now.

Lucy: I started I guess in a classical way for people working in pharma. I was, a scientist, so I studied molecular biology. That was probably quite a pivotal moment when I finished university in terms of where I was going to go from there into either kind of more university, more education. I am a curious person and that’s affected the decisions that I’ve made and driven me to do the things that I’ve done.
I love learning and I’m quite academic as well. I love to get into the detail of why things are the way they are. I had to decide, should I go into research, or continue my education, do a master’s and PhD potentially, or do I go and get a job? At the time when I was in London studying, I went and did a big graduate recruitment day, and I got a job with one of the big pharma companies in the graduate program at the time, as a sales representative thinking, this is amazing. Maybe I’ll do a couple of years, see if I like it, see if this is for me. And then I can always of go back to academics and do further study if that’s what I want to do.
The rest is history, as I became a sales rep and did lots of different field jobs. Primary care, secondary care, sales manager, account manager, and I’ve been in pharma ever since. I’ve done lots of different roles and head office roles more recently. I’ve just tried to continue to always learn, and go towards the opportunities that allow me to, expand my own mind and my own thinking, but also just make things better. I have a real internal drive to, to see things that I know could be done in a different way and to want to be part of making that happen. So that’s really the theme that’s taken me through. Today I’m working in AZ as Head of Business Innovation Oncology, which is, it’s just the best job.

Liv: Yeah, I am fascinated by that! I’ve got so many questions for you around that. But first, talk to me about your family. Obviously, I know you’ve got two children and your dog, how long had you been working in the industry when you started having children, and how was your return to work?

Lucy: I think I was 28 when I had my first child and then quickly afterwards, had my second, I’ve got two boys and, incredible, again, life-changing moment as it is for all parents.
I really wanted to take the time to be with them. So I took a year with both of my children for maternity leave, which was just so special. I’m grateful that I was able to do that and wouldn’t change it for a minute. I think when I had my first child, I was an account manager.
I had a year off maternity leave, and went back into the account manager role, and then quickly after that went into, line management role leading a team of people with two young babies. Anyone who was in my team at the time will remember that well! I guess it’s again, one of those pivotal moments where, I took effectively two, two years off with a gap in between where I did come back to work after having my first child, and then I was pregnant, then I had two small babies.
I guess I faced the decision of, do I go back? Do I continue to try and progress my career or do different things?
But I did make the decision after both my maternity leave to go back full-time and to continue to apply for different jobs and promotions. Again, I just have that drive and I think I’ve got that chip in me. I’m from the generation of women, I don’t necessarily subscribe to the, you can have it all agenda, but I feel, why not really? Why shouldn’t I put myself forward? Yes, I’ve just had two babies, but I know I can do these things. We should be able to support women and parents, dads, everyone in that position to, to be able to continue to broaden their development and their careers, even when they’re having sleepless nights.
Whatever your life is like, there’s work and life and the two should work together. I think that’s the way forward to be able to offer enough flexibility, empathy, understanding, to be able to support talented people, to continue to grow.
But that’s not easy, I think, this was a while ago, so my oldest is 13 now. So again, things have rapidly changed in terms of wellness and work life balance and corporate culture. But having personally, having taken a year off, having had this amazing child and this amazing bond when you are together every day and every minute of the night sometimes as well, then suddenly you are back into full-time work and you’re not with them and you’ve got to be on your game at work whilst you’re thinking about your baby at home, particularly in those really early days of them going to nursery, that’s emotionally tough and I remember those days of being extremely grateful and having so many amazing memories, but just being tired a lot of the time, it’s extremely difficult. I equally have a lot of understanding for new parents and people who are making that, that balance work for them right now.

Liv: Have there ever been times when you’ve looked at it and thought, this is too much, this isn’t for me?

Lucy: Yeah, though I think it probably would be the personal sacrifices that I made. I think there was probably a 10 year period where I didn’t read a magazine, read a book… I was either at work or with my children and that was the decision that I made. I was very protective of my time with them. I think Covid changed that a lot, which is interesting in terms of that intertwining of home and work, because the way that I always manage that was when I’m at work, I’m at work, I’m with my family, I’m with my family. When the two collide, that created a completely different scenario. It was all the other stuff that, that for me, started to, be deprioritized rather than opportunities or anything.
My hobbies and things for a while just weren’t on the radar!

Liv: Talking of hobbies, what is it that you like to do now? Outside work and and motherhood and dogs…

Lucy: I guess now my boys are a bit older and self-sufficient particularly my teenager, they’re not quite so keen on spending all their time with mum and dad, So it allows you a bit more freedom and a bit more flexibility.
So I took up running, a few years ago and amazingly seem to be training for the London Marathon in April! I’m running for Whizz Kids. It goes back to that drive of wanting to have something, to achieve and show that I can do it. That’s the me inside that you asked about.
It’s the inner drive that I have. I do just love learning and reading. I’ve got a whole stack of books from Amazon that I’m trying to constantly work my way through. I started an Open University Master’s Degree in Psychology a while ago, again, which is amazing because of digital transformation, these things, you’re able to do them in your spare time effectively and pick things up in your own time when it suits.

Liv: You’re making that sound so easy? I’m just doing a master’s in psychology, but no problem. Add it to the list!

Lucy: It’s a bit like that, I think it’s the drive to learn more, but it’s also the inner chip of having something to prove. I’m sure it’s just proving it to myself. There’s no one else that I need to prove anything to!
I think it comes back to the women in leadership topic, that constant proving of, I can do these things.

Liv: It’s just grit. I think it’s just absolute determination that it’s what you want, so you’re going to make it happen.
Why the Master’s in Psychology in particular? Is that an area of significance to you?

Lucy: I just find it interesting, particularly around how people interact with each other, how groups interact with each other. Work outside of work. Society. I’d always wanted to do some further education and I started to look at, now that there’s so many more courses available online, part-time, that you can do around other commitments, doing an MBA.
Then when I looked at the courses and the syllabus, I realised I knew a lot of these things already. I’ve done business for my whole career, and I’ve done marketing and I know a lot about profit and loss and that kind of thing by now.
So whilst it would be valuable. I might just do something that’s genuinely just for the curiosity and something that I’m really interested in, and that’s what makes people do the things they do and be the way they are and show up the way that they do, I think it is really interesting in business but also in wider society and life.

Liv: One of the questions I had for you is around mindset, do you think there are specific environments that you’ve been in throughout your career that have inspired a different mindset to drive your career forward? How well does the environment and the culture marry up to the mindset of an individual in your experience?

Lucy: Every company that I’ve worked in, this is on their agenda. The diversity inclusion, the wellness agenda is a hundred percent there. I guess it’s one of those things, it’s easy to say. And difficult to do sometimes, isn’t it? But I think when I’ve been in teams, or worked for people who can see you for who you are and really appreciate that, that’s when I’ve been at my best. I think that’s probably the same for everyone, isn’t it? You just want be with people who’ve got your back and are going to put some air in your parachute and help you to fly.
I think one of my light bulb moments was when one of my managers spoke to me about leadership in general. “It’s okay to be who you are. It is. You don’t have to pretend to be someone else or be what you think a leader is or has been in the past. You’ve just got to be yourself, that’s why you’re here.”
Having that acceptance and realisation moment is quite pivotal, particularly I think for women in leadership because, although it feels a little bit outdated, I still think that there is a bit about the confidence and women having imposter syndrome. Having that realisation that you can be who you are and be a leader, and there are different ways to be a leader.
It’s quite freeing and liberating and powerful.

Liv: I couldn’t agree with you more. There seems to be a wave of realisation,of people saying, we can do it our own way. Allowing yourself to be yourself, and not feeling like you need to have a work front.
Talk to me more about the time you had at Pfizer? You had a few interesting roles there including one in compliance didn’t you?

Lucy: Yes. It was a project that was looking across the board at how compliance worked. I had previously been in the field team, and this project came about, and I got involved with it. Again, I think the key drive behind it was I just wanted to help be part of making the company the best that it could be.
It ended up that I worked on it full-time for 18 months and worked on how the team was set up and how the whole process worked across the company in different business units and different teams. I was exposed to patient safety and quality along with commercial teams, medical teams, and legal teams.
I think that was probably quite a significant moment for me in terms of it being my first non-field role. Going from having worked in the field and then suddenly your eyes are open to what makes a big organization like that run. Behind the scenes, what’s happening is eye-opening.
It was a sliding doors moment for me because it made me realise that there was so much more happening than I had recognised when I was in the field. You are working on your part of a bigger piece, but being right in the thick of such a big organisation was hugely valuable. A huge step up and learning curve.
I was grateful that I was, one, given the opportunity, and two decided that it was a good opportunity to take because it isn’t a natural move, going from field sales into that kind of job.
That opened the door into other central head office roles. I went into marketing, stayed in marketing for a while, then as part of the Novartis London move I went to Novartis, first in marketing and then into digital business excellence and now business innovation at AstraZeneca.
So again, I’ve gone through several roles that are quite different and having to both educate myself. I’ve been on that journey from being a sales representative in the more traditional sense of going to call on GPs with my paper sales aid, when I first left University, to now being right at the leading edge of how we do things differently.
Customer experience, omnichannel, digital health analytics. I’ve had to educate myself a lot, but also think about how I am as a leader and how change works and how I can help to bring other people along, how we can co-create a direction and a vision. We’ve not always got that right, but I think over time have learned enough through that to now have quite a clear view on what works and what maybe didn’t work so well.

Liv: Do you think your sense of worth and the value that you put into what you do, do you think that has increased as you’ve increased in your seniority in roles? Do you think it’s become significantly stronger with each role?

Lucy: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. I think, it’s crucial for me.
I believe, and it’s part of the compliance role and that kind of thing, I believe that big pharma absolutely has a role to play in the health of the world and the nation and is pivotal in bringing new medicines forward. But we must do that with integrity and that’s how I show up every day and do the job that I do. I think the more broadly you see things from an organisational point of view and how much work, effort and diligence goes in, behind the scenes and the big decisions that are made, gives you the respect, confidence, and the conviction that we’re doing really good things, and doing the right things for the people who need us.

Liv: What are the next priorities in pharma from your perspective?

Lucy: Everybody is trying to look at this question and see where we go next and what’s the vision of the future. I do think, particularly working in the UK, we’re in a unique position because the NHS, I think is doing a great job of innovating with digital. If you go and look at some of the things that are happening in the NHS from a digital health point of view, but also their digital infrastructure. So, I think we’re actually, in an environment where there’s quite a high level of digital literacy and quite a lot of our customers will be digital natives and will expect us to be working in the same way that they’re working.
How do we handle that as an industry with all the considerations we have to make about how we work and how we do things? How do we best make the most of the technology that’s available, the expectations of our customers and our stakeholders to use them.
How do we bring that together into something that is workable? I would love to think in 10 years time, we’re working in the same way, in an appropriate way, as some of the non-pharma companies in terms of the marketing technologies that they’re using and the customer service technologies that they use.
But there’s a lot of work to do to make sure we do that in the right way, but also, we do it in a way that works for us.

Liv: I agree entirely. It fascinates me, bridging the tech with the people and balancing the ethics.
I find the whole thing utterly intriguing.

Lucy: Yeah, exactly. I think that’s the thing, isn’t it? You can either see it as a huge problem to be solved or just a really great problem to solve.

Liv: You came into your role at Novartis at the start of Covid, didn’t you? What a time to be heading up digital!

Lucy: Yeah, it was a little bit unexpected, and obviously was extremely difficult for all the reasons that we all know, but it did really change the landscape in terms of use of digital. Both internally to companies and the way that our customers expect us to be working.
Now everything is right at our fingertips on multiple different devices. How quickly we shifted to that! I think it’s fascinating from a human point of view, but equally now, we’re going back to the office, I love being in the office as well. I like how quickly you also get back into the habit of physically being with people and how important that is and how rewarding that is as well.

Liv: How did the role at Novartis come about? What drove you to go for a role like that?

Lucy: We all are digital as marketers, so that really peaked my interest in different ways of doing things. I’m not a digital technology expert. I’m not an IT expert, that’s not my background, but it’s this desire to learn, desire to lead and be part of organising people around change.
It just so happens that in 2021, digital suddenly became the most important thing that everyone needed. That wasn’t really how it came about but became massively accelerated and much bigger than I think anyone clearly anticipated.
It was really, leading the change more than being a technical expert. Although I have learned so much in the two and a half years, three years that I’ve been in these kinds of roles, now. It’s so interesting. The wealth of new technologies and new ways of working that there are available is so fascinating. Once you get into the real kind of analytics, it’s, so interesting. The way that you can use data to, to power the decisions you make or power what you’re doing is really fascinating.

Liv: How much of what you are doing in digital and data is shaping the next year or 18 months for you in this role?

Lucy: I think of innovation as what we do that’s new to drive us towards the future, and equally what do we stop doing? What do we need to leave behind, to unlearn, to enable us to move towards the future?
I have different parts of my team, I have a team of business insights analysts, have a team working on digital health, digital transformation and how we work with the health system on that. And then also looking at digital marketing, omnichannel customer experience, and then a capabilities and learning team. I do think, again, that’s a massive area of innovation around how do we then apply some of the techniques that we’ve rapidly upskilled in for customer engagement to learning development capabilities and what does that look like for the future?

Liv: You talked about unlearning. Tell me a little bit more about what are the things that we need to unlearn as an industry?

Lucy: You hear people talk about vanity metrics and I guess maybe leaving behind some of the way that we’ve always looked at things and productivity and moving towards much more in depth, qualitative, useful insights about how we’re making an impact. or again, taking the time to really think about the process of if you want to move towards omni channel or new ways of engaging customers or new models, then you can’t measure in the way that we used to measure 20, 30 years ago.
We must change how we measure our effectiveness. I really firmly believe that teams like analytics and customer engagement and capabilities learning all sit together in, in one house. because they’re all part of the same continuum.

Liv: I know you’re not long in this role, but I’m guessing as you’re fairly driven you’ve at least got an idea of the sort of things that pique your interest. What do you think is next for you?

Lucy: Family life and the way the world of work has changed. What I haven’t ever done is live outside of the UK. I’ve always held UK roles and I think it’ll be amazing to go outside of the UK and experience another country or experience another region or global something like that would be incredible.
Moving around might be the next adventure potentially. We’ve talked about it a couple of times, particularly during Covid, we had that moment of life’s for living, isn’t it?
As you said, I’ve just started this role in the UK and we’ll be here for a while as I’m really enjoying it, but I think I’ve probably become more open to the possibility we could go somewhere else and it wouldn’t be the massive upheaval that I think we’d assumed it might be.

Liv: You could still fulfill a global role first, from where you are. It’s smaller steps I suppose, isn’t it?

Lucy: Yeah. I think that’s brilliant; I know a lot of companies are able now to offer global roles or different roles that cover different markets from home effectively.
That’s brilliant for people who want those opportunities without necessarily having to move their whole family, and their whole life somewhere else.

Liv: Do you think that burden sometimes weighs heavier on female shoulders than male?

Lucy: I was thinking about that in preparation for this podcast. I was thinking back to my time on maternity leave and like I say, I would never change that time. It was the best time of my life. I loved being off with the boys when they were babies.
Sometimes, I ask myself, what if I hadn’t had two years effectively off and, if I hadn’t then come back and had to get back into work after maternity leave. Would I be doing the same thing now? Would I have made different choices?
Maybe I’d have accelerated further or done a different job. Who knows really? Whilst I haven’t necessarily had that role of being a stay-at-home mom, I occupied that place of taking some of that, burden on my shoulders.

Liv: Let’s do sliding doors. If you were Gwyneth Paltrow, who would be your alter ego?

Lucy: There’s probably a couple of them! There’s probably the professor of something somewhere. If I’d made that decision to stay in further education in academia, I’d probably have been a lecturer or something like that.
Then maybe being a big businesswoman managing a whole part of the globe somewhere for a company. Who maybe either of those still could happen.

Liv: What do you think the industry will look like for women particularly in the future? There’s going to be a time of significant change over the next year or two. How do you think it’ll change for women in terms of the flexibility on offer and getting that balance right? Where are we with that, do you think?

Lucy: I think, you look at people who are maybe just starting or, maybe where I was 10 years ago or 15 years ago, and I just think they’ve got a great place now, a great kind of platform to be able to say, what does success look like?
It looks like I’m able to balance doing a really good job, doing the jobs that I want to do, but also going at the time I need to go. Being able to add in the flexibility to go and do a pickup at nursery or school if I need to. Whether you, again, whether you’re a mum or a dad or not a parent, or you just have other things, I think there’s probably no better time than now for people to be able to say that’s what success looks like.
I think the people coming through now, the new leaders coming through expect that, the expectation has shifted from, if you’re working huge amounts of hours, then you must be working hard to, if you’re working huge amounts of hours, you’re possibly not very effective. It’s so fascinating to see that change.
I think there’s no better time really to be able to make the most of that and have that balance and boundaries making sure that it’s okay to take your time and, your time on a daily basis, but also your time in your career to, to enjoy the journey and enjoy your life and that success.

Liv: Have you had someone particularly advise, mentor, believe in you have your back has there been one key person or several people over the years that have Yeah. Pushed you in the right direction?

Lucy: There’s been several.
Whether it’s friends that I’ve made at work or managers that I’ve had who have been able to just maybe give me a nudge out of my comfort zone when I needed it or given me the pep talk when I needed it. Or just told me that when it was obvious I was having a bit of an imposter syndrome moment, we believe in you. And, more than that, we really value the person that you are, and you bring something different to the table, that’s why you’re here. That has been amazing for me.
Then there’s my family, and friends outside of work. I have a lot of friends who aren’t in pharma and when we meet up, they’ll say, “this is amazing. How are you doing this?” And it really holds up a mirror to the amazing work that we do, when you start to talk to friends and family about what you do and you’re out of the bubble of your own industry. It’s always energising.
Finally, my husband and my mum. literally, I would not have been able to do any of the jobs that I’ve done. Particularly since I’ve had children, my mum retired when I had my first baby. She’s a retired GP, and so she’s basically looked after them. She has an amazing relationship with the boys and she’s been there to help with childcare, pretty much, whenever I’ve needed it.

Liv: The last question for you, is mentoring something that interests you as well? Is that something you do much of in your role?

Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. I think particularly now, I am really interested in how we can best mentor and support and bring through people who are talented, who maybe don’t necessarily come from the traditional route. So that’s something that I’m interested in. Maybe if people haven’t gone to university or maybe people who’ve done different jobs or done different things, who wouldn’t necessarily be on the checklist of things that we need to interview someone to bring them into the industry. But when we’ve done that, I’ve seen huge benefits and it’s been hugely rewarding to be able to give people those opportunities. I’m hoping we can do a bit more of that, in the next few years. Also just thinking of things differently in terms of how we recruit, who we recruit, and bringing new leaders and new talent into the industry.
From a mentoring point of view, I have quite a big team now, so I just try and prioritise having that listening time with them. Frequent, let’s just talk and we talk freely. There’s no real kind of agenda I find that really valuable and rewarding. Hopefully they occasionally take something from it too!

Liv: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. It’s absolutely flown by. It’s been lovely to just get to know a little bit more about you and the world that you have.

Lucy: I appreciate the time. Thanks for asking me on. It’s been brilliant.