This Girl KAM with Lisa McCurdy

Lisa’s journey through the industry demonstrates to me just how bright, dedicated and hard working she has  always been.  Yet she was so incredibly humble. She shared with me not only her passion for empowering women in the workplace, her book recommendations, but also her personal challenges which shaped her career. 

Liv: Hi Lisa, Welcome to the show! Can you tell us a little bit about yourself to kick us off?

Lisa: Yeah, sure. I’m Lisa McCurdy. I grew up in the Wirral, so I’m a northerner at heart, but I have spent most of my life down south.   I’ve been very inspired by my amazing late mom who was an amazing nurse to believe very strongly in women’s rights and equality in all things. And that’s really informed some of my, a lot of my decisions in life. 

When I was about 14, I decided I wanted to go into industry. I went to an all girls school in Birkenhead that was very into encouraging women to enter industry. So that put me on that track. I did my business studies degree in Manchester. I also did the CIM diploma there.

In the last few years, I’ve rebooted all that and I’m a chartered marketeer now,  so that’s been really interesting. I’ve got two daughters. They’re 20 and 16. My oldest is a total academic. She’s in her final year at university in Paris, and she’s going on to do a master’s in London. And my youngest, who’s 16, is a true performer.

She’s just started a fabulous performing arts sixth form school. So very different trajectories for both of them.

Liv: Oh, living in Paris, wow.

Lisa:  Yeah, I know. It’s quite nice. It’s good to have excuses to go and visit a lot!

Liv: So you’re a fellow Northerner! When did you move down south?

Lisa: It was just before I went into a marketing role with MSD. So in early parts of mid nineties. Early nineties.

Liv: A long time down south then! Do you ever get back up?

Lisa:  Yes, I still have family who are in the Wirral, So I do go quite a lot. 

Liv: Nice. So you probably know by now the general purpose of this podcast is to get a bit of an idea about the person behind the job title. So we can all look at LinkedIn and see what people do and see the titles that they hold, it’s really useful to know a little bit about, what put you to where you are now and the decisions that you made along the way. So you started as a medical representative in Merck, is that right?

Lisa: It was actually, it was Rhone-Poulenc Rorers, so it was about this time, 1993 when I did my first role. After I graduated I thought I was probably going to go into HR or something and quickly found out that wasn’t for me. But I found out about medical sales through my mum, and she put me in touch with the regional business manager at RPR.

When I looked into it and saw all the routes that you could take in the industry, that was it.Decision made. The next minute, I was a shiny new rep for RPR. I had about four or five years in different marketing roles. I then joined M S D and that’s where I first got my marketing position.

MSD  were really keen on nurturing internal new talent in marketing. I look at some of my peers from the time and they are massive global pharma leaders, which is brilliant to see and I think testament to that as well. So I spent nine years there in different roles, NHS marketing and, and brand marketing. And then I thought I wanted a different flavour of marketing. So I joined AZ at a time when the they were undergoing a huge crisis of one of the brands. I won’t mention the brand, but anyone who was working at the time will remember it. And in that period I learned more about marketing and teamwork than I think I had in my entire education. It was an incredible experience.

I then had an opportunity to join Takeda. The regional account director, the RAD model was so innovative and interesting. They’ve got to the point where they realised they needed some central strategic marketing.

So I joined that team to bring in that strategic marketing to the RAD model in the UK. They were an incredible bunch to work with. 

We turned around a brand that was fourth in market, and in 18 months, made it number one. And that was just working together with that team. It was amazing. From that experience, I then moved into a European role with Takeda. So I got European experience there across the established brands.

So that was also fantastic. It was also my first sliding doors moment. The company moved to Zurich and I was offered a job leading the Cardiometabolic franchise for EUCAN,  but it coincided with my divorce, which wasn’t planned for, and I had a four and eight year old at the time.

So anyway I cut it I couldn’t make it work. So I knew the decision I was making at the time tough as it was, I decided to set up on my own, which I did for about 18 months. Which is, I’d always wanted to do it. I thought, why not? Just see and see if it suits me. I have friends that had done it and absolutely thrived, it was a fascinating experience.

I got my first flavour of working agency side, as the big project that I worked on at that time was for Ashfield, working on their global branding. They had lots of different companies at the time and we created one branded house and now I’m back there again via STEM. 

So I loved it, but I did miss being part of a team. Being really close to making a difference for brands, and patients ultimately. So that’s when I decided to expand my experience from the cardiometabolic experience that I had and get some biotech experience with Celgene in the uk. , which has been, which was another huge learning curve.

I was marketing director. I got involved in CAR T I was the CAR T director for the UK and the part of the global team, and then National Sales Director which was one of my favourite jobs I’ve ever done, second line sales management.  It was a brilliant team. That was all through covid.

Even though we were all remote, we worked incredibly closely to keep the team together, keep focused and support the journey back to seeing doctors again, seeing HCPS again. So then that’s next pivotal moment. I thought I had reached a point where I was looking for, the next step, and I’ve always been fascinated by STEM. I strongly believe that strategic alignment is the magic ingredient. For a brand to be successful, if you haven’t got the belief and confidence in your strategy from everyone who’s involved in it, doesn’t matter how good the strategy is, it won’t work.

I love how STEM really quantifies that and gives insights and makes a difference. Gives insights, makes recommendations that make a difference. So this opportunity came up with STEM and I thought, why not? It wraps up everything that I love about marketing and gives me loads of accountability. I have a great team and I have global responsibility for our major accounts and can get involved in lots of different understanding, lots of different company strategies as well. So that’s led me to where I’m today. It’s in some ways very traditional, but I have made a couple of different choices along the way.

Liv: You’ve had some big leaps though, haven’t you? Going back even to when you went from sales into marketing, what was it that made you make that initial leap? Have you had people, you mentioned your mum earlier, have you had people that have really of supported you and pushed you along the way?

Lisa:As soon as I joined as a rep, I was fascinated by strategy, messaging, positioning, and the impact that has, that I just wanted to get closer to it. I’ve seen throughout my career, marketers who are so passionate about what they do, who make a huge difference through through their understanding of the market and the customer. I’d wanted to be part of that. So I think that’s, that was the real driver. Then since I’ve been in there,  in marketing, there’s countless people, managers, colleagues people who are now founders of other companies who’ve inspired me to keep challenging myself and to keep growing.

Liv: Was that when you moved down south, for a head office role?

Lisa:  Yes. That was with MSD when I moved down south. 

Liv: It’s interesting isn’t it?  I was talking to Jen Leng on the very first podcast we did about how she moved from Scotland down south.  I’m a Northerner and it just was never something that I wanted. I couldn’t leave my home.

 I do often wonder how different my career would have been if I had done.

Lisa: I had a similar thing when I decided not to move to Zurich. I know that my career would’ve taken a different route, different trajectory had I done that.  No regrets. But it’s interesting to think about it. 

Liv: It is no regrets because you do, you make a choice, don’t you?

You make a choice with everything that you have at that time. You had a four year old and an eight year old. In 2013, when I came back to work, I chose to work remotely because I didn’t want to go back into the field. I didn’t want to be away from my family. It worked for me to stay home and not have those pressures, but it was a choice that I made at the time.

We talked about sliding doors, moments… Have you had any other sort of moments in your life that you think have been hugely pivotal for you and what have been the key factors that have driven you to go one route?

Lisa: The first sliding door I think was my divorce moment, which was kicked off by almost to the letter, the film, sliding doors, and that led to more and I think the the decision that I had to make about Zurich was a tough one. I remember that because it is quite significant. I was at the gym. I was, racked with guilt and worry about being a single mum with this four and eight year old, and how I was gonna make the career thing work. At the gym I saw a flyer for a book, and it was called Step Aside, Superwoman, by an author called Christine Brown Quinn. I thought it looked interesting so I went home and I ordered the book. It’s not a long book. It’s all about Christine Brown Quinn, who was in investment banking and her sort of anecdotes about combining everything.

 I’ve always really disliked the narrative. “As a woman can you have it all?” She dispels that. She just says, it’s not about separating career, separating motherhood. It’s all about making everything work for you together, applying your problem solving skills that you use at work to make your career and your family work the best for you. There’s lots of anecdotes in her personal experiences and I was so impressed, it was just so pivotal reading that book and a sliding moment finding the flyer.

I was so impressed, I emailed the author. I said, “I just have to tell you about this moment in my life.” So I told her my story and she said, “I don’t know where you are, but perhaps we could, have a chat and meet for coffee.” Turns out she’s in St. Albans where I live! But she was actually away in San Francisco for the next three weeks, and I was going up to San Francisco the following week for a kind of post divorce treat. So I actually met her in the Cheesecake Factory on Union Square in San Francisco, where we just talked about life and work and career and everything. And and I’ve kept in touch with her. She’s been she’s been a real mentor to me. We’ve kept in touch through my decisions I’ve made and just through different points in my life, which has been fantastic. 

Liv: That’s an amazing story. I love that you ate cheesecake with her. Since we first spoke,  I’ve downloaded two of her books.

I love the fact that, like you say, she brings everything together and it just makes so much sense. What a great mentor to have. 

Lisa: She is amazing. I don’t see her enough. Another mentor is also a friend of mine, Patricia C. Bright. She’s in a different industry.  I think it’s great to have mentors who are outside of the industry as well. They give you a very objective view. She’s always been a really sound advisor, and she’s another author. She’s just written a book called She Said. It’s about women’s voices and being heard, which is very interesting.

Liv: So thinking about the different roles that you’ve had, have there been any times in your career where you think you have been more aware of your gender than others or where it’s impacted you and perhaps made you do things differently?

Lisa: I think generally over my time in the industry, things are definitely improving and I haven’t had that many negative experiences, but definitely a couple of times when I’ve been aware of my gender. Very early on, actually, I was applying for my first management role. I was forwarded an email and as I read through the email at one point there was a discussion about my ability to do the role because I had a six month baby , and questioning my willingness and ability to really commit.

So I wasn’t expecting that, and that was probably the first time I’d seen something concrete that was directly related to my gender. The fact that I was a mum. I got the job anyway, so that was good.  I wasn’t intended to see that email, but I’m glad I did because it just raised awareness of that. The second one was much later and more personal really. That was when I found myself a single mum. That guilt and worry that I was feeling before I’d read Christine’s book and talked it through. I knew that that was very much something that a man in my position wouldn’t have had to worry about.

So my eyes were wide open. I saw it and then realised that was the decision I was making and I made that choice. But I think it’s just a consciousness that this is something that was directly related to my gender.

Liv: I think it’s great though. In the book that you talk about, it’s not negative as such about this, it is just more being aware of it and managing it. Rather than that victim mindset. 

Lisa: Yes, exactly. Getting on top of it and planning for it. Being aware of the decisions that you’re making and how you’re making them. I think that’s the most important thing. I think as well, that what those experiences gave me and also the the inspiration from my mum who was at top of her career as a nurse was, is that D & I as an agenda and a value of a company is hugely important to me.  I always look for that. I’m on the D & I committee at stem. I’m really pleased that the group company has this genuine commitment to demonstrating D & I values.

They’re developing a cross company agenda to support that as well. I just think it’s critical to have that focus and openness to make sure that we’re constantly addressing it.

Liv: Where do you think the pharma industry is in that area in general? D&I?

Lisa: That’s a really great question. I think from my experience, I’ve been really impressed. My previous experience with Celgene, who were then bought by BMS… it was top of the agenda discussion. Not just lip service. There’s a genuine passion for it.

I see BMS doing things like championing menopause awareness in the workplace and taking actions to make that a reality. My old KAM colleague, Lisa Macis, took the lead on that and it’s just been amazing to see the difference it’s making. I think as long as we have companies who are willing to pioneer and be brave, and I think we have that in our industry it’s really encouraging.

Liv: I would agree. We definitely see a lot more about it now, certainly about the impact of menopause as well. The awareness is always the first step, isn’t it?

Lisa: Yes. Get rid of the taboo. Stop laughing about it.

I think we still need to see more women in boardrooms, more women at c-suite level. It’s happening, and, you can see that happening. It’s probably true of every industry but it seems to be quite a slow pace of change. That’s probably when we’ll know  we’ve come a long way, when we start seeing much more equality at the boardroom, diversity in the board.

Liv: Agreed. So you’ve talked a bit about mentoring and some of the mentors that you’ve had in your career.  Is that something that you carve into your time to mentor others?

Lisa: Yes.   I really encourage my team always to have mentors, so I’ll be their manager and I encourage them to find mentors within the business or within wider businesses. That always has benefits for people. It’s something I encourage and then I make myself available to be a mentor. I currently mentor two people in my company.

I had some great mentees in Celgene BMS, who I’m still in touch with. I think it’s a valuable thing just to do without formality. I think sometimes people can make that relationship too formal. If formality works with people, then fine. But what I find really works is just regular check-ins with your mentor or mentee and talk about whatever’s top of their mind and on their agenda.

Liv:  I think at the moment as well with the industry going through the changes that it’s going through, there’s a lot of uncertainty, isn’t there?

There’s a lot of fear around, so it’s probably the most critical time for teams to have that kind of support.

Lisa: I agree, the roles are evolving. I think the latest data I’ve seen from STEM is that face-to-face calls are coming back with a vengeance. So I think whereas maybe a year and a half ago we might have thought it would stay 50 50 virtual and face-to-face, it’s much more like sort of 70, 80% back to face to face now, and growing.

So I think the, all the the rumours of the demise of the face to face sales team are unfounded.  But what we do see is much increased focus on key account management, changing the role of the traditional rep, making it something, probably more interesting and rewarding.

Liv: I agree. I think it is just having that competence across all channels. I don’t think the face-to-face is ever going to go anywhere. 

Lisa:  I’m a big fan of being flexible and making the blend of virtual and face-to-face work and virtual can be so productive. But getting back to meetings is so good. We had a conference last week and seeing people, having eye contact with people and those kind of collisions when you just get in, meet up with somebody and have a chat about something,  you can’t beat it.

Liv: Thinking about work-life balance, and also considering when you move into a new role and the additional pressures that we put on ourselves When you are in a new role, particular at a senior level, , how do you find you manage? I know Christine’s book touches on this very well. Give us a bit of an overview in terms of how you manage work-life balance and your take on it.

Lisa: What I try to do is I try not to separate life, into work and life, because that would mean you get to spend too much of your life, not in life.

It’s mindset thing. They interconnect. The more you think like that, the easier it is. Working virtually affords brilliant opportunities for an improved work-life balance. I think that, to make that really work, you have to have such a strong team ethos of trust and accountability and a real focus on outputs and delivery.

And I think that’s what I try and make sure happens within the teams that I lead. Making sure that we respect each other’s work, life, different commitments and needs is the first step. Making that come to life through a strong team with clear direction and values is what makes it work.

I think the core of it is that respect for needs and the needs of individuals and Having an ethos of trust. It means that people make sure that they have a great work-life balance and flag it if they don’t.

Liv: Do you think every role you’ve had had that same culture you give to your team now? Or do you think there’ve been times when it’s been better than others? Have you seen a difference over the years ?

Lisa: Yeah, definitely. I mean there have been times where I’ve been parts of teams where the culture has been, you are on call 24 7 and emailing through late into the night, first thing in the morning when there’s been a crunch point.

I think that the important thing is that if you’re in that situation, if you’re part of a team with that culture, just making sure that’s flagged and raising it, raising the impact of that.

Because you start getting less quality performance. People’s hearts won’t be in it. The quality of what you’re delivering will drop. If I’ve been involved with a team, where we’ve had those pinch point times, it’s just making sure that we know there’s an endpoint. And what we’re working towards.

Communication is so important.

Liv: If you could go back and have your time again, what lessons have you learned along the way and what sort of advice would you give to new starters in the industry now?

Lisa: . If I was going to give advice to my new starter self or anyone starting in the industry, it would be to keep a really open mind about where your future avenues lie and take the time in your first two, three years to understand the broader enterprise of the business. So not just your therapy area, not just your specific franchise or even not just sales and marketing, but start to understand early and be curious about market access, about regulatory.

Speak to your medical colleagues and learn as much as you can about that breadth because I think I’ve seen people make jumps in and out of different functions within the industry. Because they had that curiosity. I think I was quite set on, sales management, marketing and I probably could have benefited from just stepping back and learning more about the company the enterprise, the globe, the way the global operation works, and more about the industry, not just in the UK but globally too.

Get a real breadth of the knowledge. I think that the second thing is don’t be afraid of side stepping.

Theres a term ‘career scaffolding’ where you’ll take sideway steps to learn more about the business. I think that’s a big lesson for me is that careers don’t have to be this ladder, and every move doesn’t have to be a step up. You can gain a huge amount from gaining a breadth of experience in different functions too.

Liv: I’ve never heard that term career scaffolding, but I love that. So tell me what you like to do in your spare time now you’re girls are 16 and 20? Please tell me you have more spare time when they reach that age!!

Lisa: Yes, I’m empty nest supposedly, though  they keep flying back to the nest every few weeks or so! I do have a bit more time though, so I’ve joined the West End musical choir. 

Liv: Oh my God I’m dying to join a choir!

Lisa: It’s so much fun. So, on Monday nights in central London we belt out West End Tunes and it’s just great fun. I’m thoroughly enjoying that.  I live in St Albans, which is just 20 minutes from London, so that’s fantastic as it’s just such a quick stop into London.

Because I’ve been there for about 20 years I’m very involved in our local community and charity stuff as well. It’s a great city to visit if you haven’t already.

Liv: I haven’t! Tell me what sort of stuff you do.

Lisa: We have an annual festival, St Alban’s Festival, and this huge, they call it the pilgrimage, which is giant puppets, it’s a massive organisation. It starts from St. Peter’s Church and goes to the Abbey. It took a pause due to covid, but it’s back again. We start organising from January and it comes in June.

Liv: So you’ve lived in St. Albans for 20 years? Is that you there now? Do you think you’ll ever move?

Lisa: This is a really good question. I’ve got an open mind.

I’m not stuck here. It’s been great to bring the girls up here and  I’ve always had that thing in my mind about working overseas, so if that door opened, I’m probably more able to do that now than I’ve ever been.

I’ll seen what the future brings.

Liv: Thank you so much for chatting to me.

Lisa: Thanks, Liv. It’s been great to chat. Thank you.

If you would like to read the book Lisa talked about, Step aside Super Woman by Christine Brown Quinn, you can find it on Amazon here.