This Girl KAM with Caoimhe Vallely-Gilroy

Liv: Hello, Caoimhe. Welcome to the show!

Caoimhe: Hi, Liv. Thanks very much for having me.

Liv: You’re very welcome. This is a completely new experience for both of us, as we were just discussing. I’ve never been in an actual recording studio before, and I don’t think you have either, Caoimhe. Have you?

Caoimhe: Well yes, but it was a very long time ago and it was part of a school choir…

Liv: Okay. So it’s not quite the same as this then!

Caoimhe: No, not quite the same, no.

Liv: Alright then. To start us off, Caoimhe, could you please tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Caoimhe: That’s a really interesting question because I never quite know how to answer it. So, here’s a little bit about me. I’m originally from Northern Ireland, but I’ve been living abroad for almost 17 years now. During that time, I’ve primarily been involved in the life science and pharma industry. Honestly, I accidentally stumbled into pharma. It wasn’t something I had planned. It just happened to catch my attention, and I thought, “Oh yeah, okay, I’ll give it a try.”

After completing my undergraduate degree in genetics in Belfast, I moved to Basel, Switzerland to pursue a postgraduate research fellowship at the Friedrich Me Institute. I spent an entire year in a lab and realised that while I loved science, I didn’t love the lab environment. That’s when I decided that it wasn’t the right fit for me. Luckily, I met a cool Irish lady in Basel who happened to be the head of a recruiting company. I can’t remember exactly how I met her, but she got me an interview with Fisher Clinical Services for a project management role. I ended up accepting the position, and that’s how I ended up in the industry, rather than academia or a lab setting. So, I dove straight into project management and clinical development within the life sciences and pharma industry, and I haven’t looked back since.

If I were to describe myself, I would say I’m more of an opportunist. I have a short attention span and I like to be engaged. I get grumpy when I’m bored. I’m a lifelong learner who can’t seem to stop acquiring knowledge. I love reading and staying informed about what’s happening in the field. So, I’ve transitioned through various areas within the healthcare space, focusing on those that truly interest me.

I started with early-stage research and development, delving into topics like polycomb genes and body segmentation genes. Unfortunately, some of that early research I worked on never saw the light of day. Then, I moved into clinical development, including clinical trials and the development of diagnostic tests. Eventually, I found myself drawn to the realm of digital health and data, which I consider a culmination of all the things I believe the healthcare industry should embrace.

That’s why I shifted away from the operational aspects of clinical trials and started focusing on how outdated and regulated the processes are. They no longer meet the needs of society or keep pace with technological advancements and our understanding of diseases. During the COVID-19 pandemic, the phrase “health is your wealth” became quite popular, but it’s still just a buzzword. People talk about it in terms of fixing illnesses and getting back to normal, but it’s so much more than that.

But to me, it was like, why should we be broken in the first place? Why not focus on preventing illness from the beginning? That’s where I firmly believe the healthcare industry should be heading. So that’s basically my work perspective in a nutshell. Outside of work, I mainly work. That’s where I spend most of my time. People often say, “If you do what you love, you’ll never work a day in your life.” Well, I call bullshit on that. Or bollocks, depending on my mood at the time. When you have a job you love, you become passionate about it, and you end up working long hours. So, the idea of not counting work doesn’t apply here.

Yes, I work a lot because I genuinely enjoy what I do. However, I’m working hard to change that perspective. I want to move towards a life where I truly live, not just exist. During the COVID-19 pandemic, my cat was a saviour for me. Living in Germany and being away from my family, who are part of a large Irish clan, was quite isolating. We’re typically heavily involved in each other’s lives. So, not being able to be with them during several Christmases was tough. My mother, who is like the Christmas fairy, acted as though the world was ending because we couldn’t celebrate Christmas together properly. Having a ginger cat with one brain cell, who is an absolute idiot but highly entertaining, saved my sanity. That’s why he’s spoiled more than he probably should be. But hey, he’s just a cat. How much harm can you do by spoiling a cat? He’s not going to grow up to be a dictator. It’s all good.

I love diving. I’m a scuba diver. I recently became a qualified dive master, and I’m really proud of that achievement. It allows me to assist in teaching and, if I ever decide to leave the life science and pharma field, I can disappear to the Caribbean and guide tourists on enjoyable dive tours. That’s what I mostly do in my spare time. Funny enough, I didn’t initially have an interest in diving. A friend of mine convinced me to learn because they wanted to go on a liveaboard dive trip in Indonesia. She said that if I joined, it would make our tickets cheaper. I wasn’t entirely sure how that benefitted me as I wasn’t planning on spending that money in the first place, but I have a soft spot for boats, so I thought, why not? It turned out to be a great experience. I had to learn to dive before the trip, and it was quite nerve-wracking.

Liv: Diving terrifies me. My husband did it when he was travelling, and he’s now a qualified PADI diver. I won’t go with him. I prefer to stay on land when we’re on holiday! 

Caoimhe: Honestly, if you had seen me while I was learning to dive, you would have thought, “That girl will never go into the water.” I learned to dive in Germany since I live there. At the time, I lived in Frankfurt, which is far from any sea. So, doing the open water qualifications was a bit challenging. In Germany, you typically do them in a lake, but I don’t like lakes. They feel slimy, muddy, and there are things touching you that have been there for a long time. I’m not a fan of lakes at all. So, you can imagine, I wasn’t the most cooperative learner when it came to diving in a lake. Something touched my foot, and I was out. I wanted nothing to do with it. If you had seen me then versus now, you would have said, “There’s no way she’ll ever dive.” I’m also quite claustrophobic, and I immediately thought that diving would exacerbate that feeling. I have this irrational fear of getting my shoulders stuck in a concrete pipe, even though I’ve never been in one and have no intention of going into one underwater.

No, but yeah, anyway, so, it turned out that I actually find diving quite pleasant once I got over my initial dislike for lakes. I find it very meditative because I learned to dive in German, and my German isn’t as good as my English, so I have a smaller vocabulary in German. When I’m underwater, I actually think in German, and because I know fewer words, my thoughts are less cluttered. As a result, I find it very relaxing. Another thing that offsets my claustrophobia is the fact that I’m blind in one eye, so I lack 3D vision. Everything appears flat, like in The Simpsons, to me. Everything’s in 2D. Have you ever seen that episode of Father Ted where they go to the caravan? Ted and Dougal are in the caravan, and Ted explains to Dougal why the toy cow is small while the real cow in the field also looks small. He says, “This one’s small and this one’s far away,” trying to explain the difference. That’s essentially how I’ve navigated through life—something is far away, and if it’s getting bigger, it’s getting closer. So, I was actually concerned that my vision would be an issue while diving, but it turned out to be the opposite. Everyone experiences differences in depth perception when diving due to light refraction underwater. So, I was pleasantly surprised that diving felt just like what I normally see. 

Liv: Right, okay. We’re totally digressing, aren’t we?  So, let’s talk about your work and your passions. You mentioned that you work a lot because you’re passionate about what you do. Can you tell me more about your passions, values, and what motivates you to keep going?

Caoimhe: Okay, I’m aware that we only have a limited amount of time, so I’ll try to keep it concise. One thing I struggle with, is that my life would be much easier if I had one distinct passion instead of a spectrum of passions. All my passion revolves around healthcare and providing healthcare.

I stress the term healthcare because I believe the current setup of the industry and society focuses more on sick care rather than true healthcare. This approach doesn’t sit right with me and I find it unethical. So my overarching passion is not just about fixing issues or emergencies, but about empowering people with an understanding of their own health. It’s about creating an early warning system to address concerns before they become problems, enabling individuals to live their lives according to their desires.

I strongly believe that everyone should have autonomous ownership of their health data. It’s important to make decisions based on personal choices and lifestyle. I don’t think we should have the right to dictate and impose penalties based on factors like daily step count or weight. We shouldn’t swing to the extreme of defining health and restricting individuals within those boundaries. Health is about empowering people, and it’s about enabling everyone to reach a level in their lives where they can pursue their passions and contribute in meaningful ways.

For me, this is incredibly important. As the spectrum of my passions expands, different aspects become significantly important to me. I’m highly passionate about women’s health and preventative healthcare. I strongly believe in early intervention. I’m also a proponent of transforming the pharmaceutical industry by shifting focus from reactive drugs to early interventions. This requires a complete change in the pharma business model, as it means developing treatments that, if successful, may not visibly demonstrate their effectiveness due to the prevention of disease progression in patients.

This is a challenging concept to sell, especially to regulators. It’s difficult to convince them that a person could potentially develop a condition and, therefore, we need to provide them with a treatment to prevent it from ever occurring. The lack of visible progress in patients makes it a tough sell.

So, yes, it encompasses a wide spectrum of topics that I’m truly passionate about.

Liv: So, okay. Wow, there’s a lot to unpack there, isn’t there? So, is that then focusing on digital health and tailoring it to individuals rather than prescribing generic guidelines like a set number of steps? Because everyone’s needs and preferences are different, right? Are you saying we need to shift towards more bespoke personalised preventive medicine?

Caoimhe: Yin, which is my favourite German word, meaning yes and no at the same time. In an ideal world, yes, we would be able to deliver and customise early interventions, therapies, behavioural changes, risk factor management, and digital monitoring at a micro level for each individual. However, I’m a bit more realistic in the current industrial context. I’m not entirely sure if we can achieve that yet or if it’s a sustainable business model. I have to consider the balance between science fiction and what can actually be commercially viable.

So, how do we make incremental changes while ensuring the business aspect remains feasible as we strive for concepts like 3D printing personalised drug doses or utilising longitudinal data to understand variations in drug metabolism among individuals? Personalisation can go to the extent of recognising different optimal times for drug intake based on an individual’s metabolism. That’s the level of personalisation I believe we can reach. However, I don’t think we should attempt to boil the ocean immediately. We need to take small steps forward. As much as I’d love to transition immediately from standard care to a completely personalised journey, convincing people to embrace that idea will likely be more challenging than simply talking about its merits.

So, in that regard, Yin,

Liv: I’ll take a Yin. It’s a great word, I might adopt it myself.

Okay, I wanted to discuss your transition into independent work and life. You spent some time at Merck, Novartis, and Roche, so you were deeply involved in the big pharma world. Could you share your reasons for moving away from that and what drove your decision?

Caoimhe: Well, it was actually accidental rather than deliberate. I didn’t plan to make the transition at all. I thought I was just taking a holiday, but it turned out to be the strangest holiday ever. So, as you mentioned, I worked at Merck for six years and left at the end of December 2022. The reason behind my departure was that my ambitions and passions were no longer aligned with the company’s strategic goals at that time. It was an amicable separation, and I decided to take my time to find the right place for myself. I was motivated to work in an environment that felt like home, surrounded by engaged, ambitious, and like-minded individuals who shared a common culture.

I had numerous conversations with various people during this process, but I must admit I became increasingly frustrated. Throughout my career, I’ve been fortunate enough to gain experience across different aspects of the pharma value chain. While I don’t have expertise in manufacturing and readily acknowledge that, I’ve been involved in research, clinical development, and commercial operations. I can navigate between these three areas and genuinely enjoy each of them. However, the true value lies in the connections between them.

During my conversations, I kept receiving the same response: “Your skills, background, and principles are fantastic. We really want you, but we don’t know where to place you.” This feedback made me realize that I didn’t want to be confined to a specific role anymore. I didn’t fit into a box. For 17 years, I had been squeezing myself into that box within the pharma industry, thinking it was the only way to be accepted and valued. This realisation was profound.

I had given myself three months, and in mid-January, I had a conversation with a tech company that I had been casually chatting with back and forth. I had developed a friendship with the CEO, who was passionate about data security and privacy. He had attended some pharma conferences, and we had gone out for dinner and had meaningful discussions. I genuinely liked him.

He expressed interest in bringing the company into the healthcare and pharma industry, and he asked if I would be willing to work on a project for them. They wanted me to examine their product and provide suggestions on how it could fit and be useful in the pharma sector. I thought it would be a fun opportunity, so I agreed to a three-month project.

Suddenly, I found myself with five clients without fully understanding how it happened. What started as a favour to a friend and an exploration of their product turned into a series of clients covering a broad spectrum, ranging from data security to synthetic control arms in clinical trials, genomics testing for companion diagnostics, digital therapeutics, and a government-sponsored innovation accelerator.

Suddenly I realised that I didn’t have to conform to a box anymore. I could pursue all the things I enjoyed and find fulfillment in each individual company. And that’s okay for now. It’s where I’m challenged and stretched, which are incredibly important to me. Learning is a priority, and being listened to is something I appreciate. In the pharma industry, if you voice an opinion on something outside your job description, even if you have the expertise, it’s often dismissed with a “not for you.” So having people acknowledge and value my input was a significant confidence boost. It validated that I have knowledge across different areas, and it’s been a lot of fun. It was a completely accidental journey, and I don’t know if it will last forever. But right now, it brings me a great deal of enjoyment.

Liv: It’s working for you now.

Caoimhe: Yes, exactly.  And I get to work with startups, which I love because startups are shiny. They’re new, and they still believe they can change the world. They haven’t been jaded by cynicism yet, and I find that incredibly refreshing. It’s a moment where everything is possible, and I get completely swept up in that. The energy you experience when working with startups and scale-ups is just incredible. It’s such a contrast from the big pharma world.

Liv: Absolutely, I can understand that completely. So, at the end of last year, you were recognized by Intelligent Health AI as one of their top innovators for 2022. Can you tell me a bit about that?

Caoimhe: Well, you know, to be honest I know as much about it as you do! Like I mentioned earlier, I did a lot of presenting at conferences last year. And because I was really passionate about advancing healthcare, believe it or not, I’m quite open and vocal about my opinions.

I know, shocking, right? I hide it so well. But seriously, I’m not afraid to speak up and say what I believe is right, what I think will move us forward. In fact, every presentation I give starts with a disclaimer slide. It says, “I am not representing any organisation or institution I work for. These opinions are solely my own.” And my final line on that slide is, “I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time when I’ve learned something new.”

I think that’s crucial because our field is constantly evolving and changing. You can’t afford to have a fixed mindset and cling to the notion that things will always be the same. You have to approach it with a mindset of constant evolution and adaptability. You need to be open to learning and improving so you can deliver the best possible outcomes.

 I’m not afraid to be wrong. Being wrong is okay. Sorry, I went off on a tangent there. Back to Intelligent Health.  Last year, I did a lot of presentations where I shared my opinions. And I have to admit, in December, something funny happened. I was having dinner with two friends, and we were laughing because the Forbes 40 under 40 list had just been released the day before. We recognised someone on the list, and we were like, “Wait a minute, they don’t really know what they’re doing!” It sparked an interesting discussion about how these lists don’t always hold much significance. Many of them require self-nomination or even payment to be considered.

We had a good laugh about it, and then the next day, I received a notification on LinkedIn. Ping! It said, “You’ve been tagged in this LinkedIn post.”

And I was like, “Oh, well, what post have I been tagged in by Intelligent Health?” So I clicked on it, and it was the top 55 list. I took a screenshot and sent it to the boys, saying, “I swear I didn’t apply for this! I had no idea this was happening.” It was just hilarious because it happened the day after our conversation about those lists.

I have to admit, I felt incredibly flattered. If you look at the people on that list, they’re absolutely amazing. I wouldn’t have even thought to put myself among them. But I’m truly honoured to be considered for such recognition, just for speaking my mind on a daily basis.

Liv: Well, let’s dive deeper into what’s on your mind regarding AI because we’re experiencing a tremendous period of change. There’s been massive disruption with the emergence of generative AI towards the end of last year—OpenAI. So, where do your opinions stand on AI and how it can benefit the pharmaceutical industry? Or perhaps any areas we need to be cautious about? What are your thoughts?

Caoimhe: What’s even more interesting is that I wouldn’t consider myself an AI specialist. I don’t claim to know all the ins and outs of how data can be leveraged to solve problems. I may not understand the technicalities, but I do recognise its potential. I can identify problems and envision what a solution should look like. However, I’m not necessarily the one who connects the problem to the solution using AI or any tools in that space. So, I’ll be the first to admit that there are people out there who are bigger, better, and smarter than I am.

When it comes to AI, my long-standing opinion has been that it’s a tool—an incredibly valuable one if used correctly. But the most crucial aspect is that AI is only as good as the data it relies on. Yeah. So, for me, we can talk endlessly about the flashy stuff and throw around buzzwords like AI, machine learning, big data, blah, blah, blah. It’s what pharma loves to do. But the structural aspects—the data architecture, governance, quality, and the sheer amount of data points available—are equally if not more important, even if they’re not as sexy.

So, some of the challenges I’ve encountered, and I often address them when talking to startups pushing their incredible solutions, is to dial it back a bit. You don’t want to jeopardise your credibility. After all, you’re building models that people will base decisions on. In healthcare, these models will influence diagnostic and prognostic decisions, affecting people’s lives and treatments. It’s fantastic, as long as they’ve been trained correctly and there’s enough statistically significant data.

So, start with your data—the value and quality it holds. AI is the cherry on top, bringing the potential for amazing things. But remember, rubbish in equals rubbish out. Yeah. It’s something we often overlook but is equally important.

Liv: I couldn’t agree more.

So where do you think, then, and I suppose in your role now as an advisor when you’re speaking to companies, particularly in pharma and life sciences, where do you think the industry needs to focus on over the coming years? What do you think the priorities should be to get to the vision that you hold in terms of preventative healthcare?

Caoimhe: First of all, I think that it’ll take more than just my thoughts on this. I think it’ll require a lot more input from various stakeholders. I’ll split it into two ways. I believe society needs to change, and I believe business needs to change. One will always follow the other, depending on where the money goes. So, as people and as a society, are we going to demand better healthcare? Will we demand the level of personalization and digitalization that we have experienced in recent years?

Let me give you an example. I love watching those cheesy Hallmark movies, the romantic comedies during Christmas on Netflix. I watch every single one of them, and I know that because my Netflix algorithm shows me all the movies I’ll enjoy. I watch them and it makes me very happy because I can switch off my brain and indulge in those formulaic happy endings. Everyone ends up having a lovely time, and it’s great. I go away feeling a bit better because I’ve taken an hour and a half to relax and escape.

Now, let’s talk about my tumultuous relationship with Amazon. They keep suggesting products to me, and I end up buying them. As a result, my bank account and house are filled with various items. I even own more metal straws than any individual should. But here’s the thing: Amazon is very good at suggesting products I might like. So, why aren’t we demanding the same level of personalization from our healthcare?

This brings me to the two potential inflection points. Either the world will turn around, stand up, and say, “Stop dictating to me what healthcare should look like. Stop dictating my treatment plan or pathway. This is what I want.” Pharma talks a great game about patient centricity, patient design in drug development, and patient-centered approaches. But at the end of the day, are they truly developing drugs that fix the patients’ problems? Or are they simply seeking validation from patients to justify the predetermined drug pathways? That needs to change. It really does.

And I had a great conversation actually on Monday. I was in Basel, and I was chatting with a Swiss hospital administrator. He mentioned that they’re trying to discourage excessive specialisation within the hospital system. They want to focus more on general practice because specialisation can be costly and lead to scheduling difficulties.

And he said, “You know, we’re really trying to look at how we change that around and ensure that we deliver what patients truly need, because we’re finding that sometimes the solutions we provide actually make the patients’ condition worse.” I replied, “Well, I can understand that.” He seemed surprised and asked, “But how can you understand that? Why would that make any sense? We fix something, we cure it.” I explained, “Look, I’m blind in my right eye since birth. Everything appears two-dimensional to me. It would completely disrupt my life if I suddenly gained sight in my right eye because I wouldn’t know how to perceive depth. Everything would change. At 37, it takes a long time to unlearn what I’ve already learned. So my coping mechanisms would be completely thrown off.” What matters to me is not regaining sight in my right eye. What matters is preventing the loss of vision in my left eye. That’s what’s important to me—not finding a cure or treatment for my current vision but preventing any further deterioration. So, that’s where we need to focus. Where does that initial drive come from? Where does pharma, drug development, and therapeutic development start shifting toward understanding what patients truly want and need? Instead of desperately trying to fix something, we should strive to maintain the patient’s desired quality of life and condition. And if the financial models align to make that viable, whether pushed by regulators, the government, or consumers themselves—I’m going to say something that many people hate to hear—we need to consumerise healthcare. Now, let me clarify what I mean. I don’t mean consumerisation like Apple or Google or mindlessly buying whatever you want from a supermarket. That’s not what I’m talking about. We need to treat patients as consumers—as the end users. Because currently, that’s not how the healthcare system, including pharma, operates. The end users of pharma are the prescribers, and that takes away power and ownership from the patients. But it’s the patients who have to take the medication and therapeutics designed for them. They should have a say in what is developed for them, how it makes them feel, and how it affects them. We need to consumerise health and empower patients to determine their own view of health and how they want to live their lives.

Liv: Pharma is set up to be B2B, isn’t it? But it’s really B2C when you think about it. It’s about focusing on individuals, not organisations. It makes so much sense. So you’re a sports fanatic. Tell me a little bit about that, and more importantly, tell me how on earth you balance it in your life.

Caoimhe: Okay, I’ll start with the second part. Currently, I don’t balance it. It’s the age-old question of how to develop a work-life balance. When people ask me about my work-life balance, I say, “Yes, I have a work life,” and then I stop. As I mentioned earlier, that needs to change.

And I believe in that myself. I’m really trying to put it into practice. I’m committing to something, and I’m saying it on a recording so I can’t go back on it. I’m going to live to regret this, but I have to do it. I’ll get to that in a second.

But yeah, I’m really trying to commit to living rather than just existing. Living in the moment. I’m the nightmare when it comes to planning things. I plan everything down to the last detail. I have spreadsheets. I probably have more spreadsheets than any human in the world should have. I love spreadsheets.

I even have spreadsheets for birthdays and Christmas presents that I’ve maintained for years. I add people to it, and throughout the year, if I see something I think someone might like, I put it on the spreadsheet. It’s a bit crazy, I know.

And when I go places, I plan everything. Liv: Everything? I love this! Caoimhe: Yeah, it’s not good though. Liv: Why not? Caoimhe: Because I shouldn’t love it, but I do. However, over the last couple of years, I noticed that I wasn’t enjoying things as much as I should be. I was always rushing to the next thing because it was scheduled to happen at a specific time.

I was running everything like project meetings. Even when I went on holiday with people, I would say, “Okay, come on, next move. Let’s go. Dinner’s booked at 7, at 6:53. It’s a seven-minute walk. Let’s go.” I wasn’t enjoying the present moment, and that’s something I’m working to fix.

To address this, I’ve just gotten the most incredible new apartment. I’m moving next month.  I don’t know why I thought it was a good idea in the midst of starting up my independent consultancy company. But I decided to do it, and I’m really excited about it.

The new apartment will make my life better, and it’ll be fun and quirky. I’ll have plenty of space for guests and a comfortable office to work in, even though I’m always traveling. I’ll even create a cat corner for my cat. It will feel like a home, not just a house.

Because I live in houses, and for the past few years, I feel like I’ve merely existed in them instead of truly living in a home. So I’m in the process of building my own home, a cozy and happy nest. And I’m going to treat myself to a pink Smeg fridge as the centerpiece. So excited!

So that’s essentially my answer to that. I don’t have a work-life balance at the moment, but I’m working on it.

I’ve always been involved in sports. I love it because I’m extremely competitive. Actually, I’m highly competitive. When we were kids, we were banned from playing board games because it always ended in chaos due to our competitiveness. We didn’t even play cards. When I went diving on the boat during breaks, people would play cards. I only knew Snap, and that was the extent of my card game knowledge. I had to be taught other card games, and I’m the worst card player ever. I both love and hate rules, and I enforce them like nobody’s business. “No, you cheated. No, you’re not allowed.” So yes, I’m super competitive, hyper-competitive.

I played a lot of sports as a kid because I could channel my competitiveness through it. I played rugby, especially when girls’ rugby was just starting in Northern Ireland. I was a total enforcer on the field. I’m tall, broad, and very strong. Running into me was like running into a brick wall. And when I started running, people didn’t expect me to be as fast as I actually was. I surprised them with my speed. I was like a freight train that was difficult to stop on the rugby pitch. However, I haven’t played rugby in years due to a serious injury. But I simply loved sports and being part of a team. I excelled at sports, and it brought me joy.

Sports became a significant part of my identity for a long time.  I participated in athletics and competed a lot. I absolutely loved it. Then, after my ankle injury, my physiotherapist recommended CrossFit to me, even though he generally didn’t approve of it. He knew I couldn’t be trusted to not do something stupid while recovering, as I get bored easily. So he sent me to a CrossFit gym in Cambridge, where his brother worked and his best friend owned it. They were well-informed about my tendencies. They watched me closely, making sure I only followed my physio’s prescribed exercises. But I loved it because I was already strong. Could I do a pull-up? No. Did I want to do a burpee? Oh my God, no. Did I have any interest in doing a muscle-up? Not even slightly. Weightlifting, on the other hand, came naturally to me. I excelled at it immediately. I was strong, and that made it fun. Topping the leaderboard was seriously motivating for me. I became deeply invested in weightlifting and started training seriously. And I thought, because I like to have a goal. I thought; Well, there’s not many weightlifters in Northern Ireland… There are now, there’s a much, much bigger weightlifting community in Northern Ireland. Much more than there were at that stage. But at the time I thought; I can maybe train for the Commonwealth Games! And so I did, until Covid hit and then I was trapped inside my apartment working 17 hour days. And I just thought,  I love this, but even I have to admit that I could continue to try and force this through, but it’s just not gonna work. I can’t commit to that level of training. And so I kind of had to give up on that. But my big commitment now, because I always have a goal and I know you’re watching me with anticipation, excited in my lunacy. I have decided, I decided this about two years ago and I have done absolutely nothing towards it as yet… But I have decided that before my 40th birthday, I would like to swim the channel.

Liv: Oh my God, that’s amazing!

Caoimhe: Yeah, so I’ve been thinking about it.

Liv: You need to make a firm commitment now. Not just saying you’d like to do it. I want to make sure you commit to it.

Caoimhe: Yeah, you’ll keep me accountable. Let’s do it.

Liv: So you’re committing to swim the channel?

Caoimhe: Yes, I’m giving myself three years to do it.

Liv: So you’re going to do it?

Caoimhe: Yes, I am.

Liv: By what year then?

Caoimhe: 2025. That gives me two and a half years.  Either in 2025 or during my 40th year, which could extend up to 2026.

Liv: If you need any sponsorship or support, count me in. You’ve made this commitment on the show, and I’m here to help however you need!

Caoimhe: And if anyone wants to sponsor me and have a laugh at an ex-rugby player swimming the channel, feel free to do so.  I’ll even set up an Instagram page to document the journey and make fun of myself.

Liv: (Laughing) We’ll make sure to add it to the show notes, even if we have to do it retrospectively.

Caoimhe: If you want to witness this not going very well but still going for it, tune in.

Liv: But please donate generously…

Caoimhe: Yes, it will definitely be for a charity. Swimming the channel is quite a financial undertaking. I looked into it before, and you need to hire safety crews and boats to follow you so you don’t drown or get hit by a tanker.

Liv: Absolutely, avoiding being hit by a tanker is crucial.

Caoimhe: Definitely, that wouldn’t help me reach France. So, yeah.

Liv: So how are you going to fit this into your life now? Let’s talk about work-life balance again.

Caoimhe: Yeah, that’s something I’ll have to figure out.

Liv: How are you gonna make that work? That’s another commitment you have to make. You’re gonna need an Excel spreadsheet.

Caoimhe: Oh, there’s definitely gonna be an Excel spreadsheet involved. The new apartment I got is just a three-minute bike ride away from an Olympic-sized swimming pool.

So it looks like I’ll be spending a lot of time in that pool. But you know what’s terrifying and absolutely dreadful? Brace yourself for this. I’m gonna have to swim in lakes.

Liv: Oh no. Oh, you are!

Caoimhe:  Yes, I am. There’s no escaping it. And here’s the thing, I’m actually pretty decent at breaststroke, but when it comes to 50 meters of front crawl, well, I can’t breathe properly. But hey, at least I can make it to the other end of the pool without taking a breath. But then I’m like, “Now I’m dead.”

So I definitely need help. If anyone out there knows a great swimming coach who can teach me endurance front crawl, please get in touch. I’ll take any tips or advice from anyone. But preferably something useful.

Liv: Not just “Don’t do it.”

Caoimhe: Yeah, you can give me that advice, but I’m stubborn enough to go, “Well, that just makes me want to do it more.” So any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Liv: Well, consider yourself held accountable for that now. You know that, right? Just so you’re fully aware.  So when we first spoke, you mentioned that you were the quiet kid in school, or rather, quite reserved. Is that right?

Caoimhe: I think I was quite, well, I guess you could say I was the daydreamer. Yeah, I spent a lot of time lost in my own thoughts during school. I’m not really close to the people I went to school with anymore. My closest connections are from university. That’s when I started feeling more like myself.

I just didn’t love school. I enjoyed the academic side of it and the learning, but the environment and politics? Not so much. School days being the best days of your life? Nah, not for me. Thanks, but no thanks. I’d rather never go near it again. I’m not sure how others saw me in school, but I saw myself as someone lost in my thoughts. I wouldn’t say I was popular or unpopular. I sort of drifted between different friend groups.  I hung out with both the academic crowd and the sports crowd. And as I mentioned earlier, I was part of the school choir and involved in school musicals quite a bit. So, I floated between different groups within the school. I don’t think I truly found myself or felt comfortable in my own skin until my early thirties. So, my self-perception in school was probably that I wasn’t very happy and didn’t really want to be there most of the time. I daydreamed a lot because it was an escape into my own thoughts.

Liv: Are you still involved in singing now? Are you part of a choir or anything? 

Caoimhe: My mother would love to say I do a lot more, considering the money spent on singing lessons. But I do still sing a bit. As part of my work-life balance, I’m trying to find a choir to join here in Germany. When I lived in Basel for about seven years, I was heavily involved in the Basel English Theatre Group, which is an amazing group. We did musicals and even got involved in the Panto Society. Oh my God, it was incredible. Panto was just completely off the wall. We had a fantastic musical director who wasn’t afraid to do things a little differently. There was also this guy, Anthony, who’s now great at talent acquisition for a nutrition company, but back then he took some time off to do a master’s in musical theatre in London. We were brainstorming and came up with some fun ideas. He played the Panto Dame, and we ended up doing a song from Spamalot during the scene changes. It was hilarious. At one point, we got a bit carried away, and he spun me off the stage, and I ended up falling into the orchestra pit.  I haven’t had a chance to do theatre since, and I’d really like to get back into it. It’s another side of me that needs to be unleashed; otherwise, I get a bit restless. My poor neighbours in my current apartment have probably heard me belting out opera at the top of my lungs at 11 a.m. or 8 p.m. Thank goodness for German engineering and their sound insulation in apartments. Let’s hope the insulation in the new apartment is just as good. Fingers crossed I don’t make enemies in the new place.

Liv: So, if you could go back, there are a couple of questions I want to ask before we wrap up, and they’re related to what we were just discussing. So, if you could go back to your high school self, back when you weren’t the person you ultimately became, what advice would you give yourself, knowing everything you know now?

Caoimhe: Hmm, I think I would tell myself to stop beating yourself up. I tend to be overly self-critical. So, I would say, you know what, you’re stressing out about things and driving yourself crazy over things that other people haven’t even noticed, cared about, or remembered. So, stop being so hard on yourself. If you think you’ve done something wrong, go talk to the person. Have the guts to say, “Hey, I think I hurt you, or I think I messed up, or I’m not sure.” Instead of being defensive or stressing out, just address it.

The biggest lesson I’ve learned is that it’s much healthier to nip it in the bud before it consumes you. They might turn around and say, “Actually, I have no idea what you’re talking about,” or “Oh, that was just a throwaway comment.” They might not even have paid attention or taken it to heart. So, nip it in the bud, don’t stress, and be open to apologizing. I think that’s incredibly important. Just say, “I’m really sorry, I didn’t mean it. It doesn’t excuse it, but I’ll do my best to be better.”

Other than that, I probably wouldn’t change much. I’d love to say, “Don’t let yourself be boxed in,” or challenge the perception people had of me in school. But in the end, you need to learn those lessons yourself. Yeah, you need to discover your own boundaries, principles, and integrity. I don’t think I could have become who I am today without going through all that.

Liv: No, fair enough. So, the final question I have for you is about the movie Sliding Doors. Now, I know you said you haven’t seen it, which is surprising considering your love for romcom movies!

Caoimhe: Haha, well, I’m quite niche in my taste for crappy romcom movies that I enjoy.  I have no idea about that particular movie, to be honest.

Liv: Alright, let me give you a quick overview then. It stars Gwyneth Paltrow, probably from the early ’90s. She goes to work one day, just like any other day, from nine to five. She’s running a bit late for some reason—I can’t remember why, to be honest. Anyway, she’s rushing to catch the train. But she misses it, and the doors slide closed right in front of her. So, she turns around and goes back home, only to discover that her husband has been cheating on her. Her entire life takes a different path from that moment onward. She gets divorced and  the movie revolves around these pivotal moments in life and how they can lead us down entirely different paths. 

So, based on that idea of pivotal moments, are there any in your life where you sometimes think, “I could have lived an entirely different life if I had taken a different route?”

Caoimhe: I would say there are probably two big ones for me. The first one was moving from Belfast to Switzerland at the end of my undergraduate degree. If I had stayed in Belfast, my life would’ve taken a completely different trajectory—massively different. I would’ve been a completely different person. Northern Ireland at that time, some of my cousins still refer to me as Chandler Bing because they have no idea what I do… But in Northern Ireland at that stage, I remember when we did career assessments at school, and they only presented the typical options like doctor, dentist, nurse, teacher, lawyer, or civil servant. Anything outside of that was nonexistent as a career. It would have been completely bizarre for me to pursue the path I ended up taking. It just wasn’t the norm. However, I’m incredibly proud of the people in my generation from Northern Ireland who have done some really cool, weird, and wacky things. They followed their passion without worrying about fitting into the traditional mould.

Don’t get me wrong, those who chose to become doctors, dentists, nurses, teachers, civil servants, or lawyers are brilliant. If that’s what they wanted to do and they’re living a life they love, hats off to them. I don’t mean to belittle their choices in any way. But it’s amazing to see people from a conservative culture in Northern Ireland break boundaries and do extraordinary things. There’s a vibrant health tech scene happening in Northern Ireland right now, which is incredibly exciting. It fills me with pride to see Northern Ireland represented as a place where people push boundaries and challenge the status quo.

Northern Ireland is an incredible place, and it breeds a unique and special kind of person. The sense of humour there is unmatched. I’m proud to call myself a Northern Irish. I come from Belfast, and I’m proud of the people who are making their mark on the world stage, despite it being such a tiny place. Seeing people accomplish incredible things on a global scale truly fills me with pride.

If I had stayed in Northern Ireland at that time, my life would have been very different—probably married with children, which, to me now, seems like a super alien concept. I mean, I like children, but I couldn’t eat a whole one. I prefer them when they’re in the potato stage, where they don’t do much. And I appreciate them when they reach the stage where you can reason with them. It’s that in-between phase when they’re sticky and noisy that I’m not quite ready for. No, thank you. I’m totally good.

So, staying in Northern Ireland would have led me down a very different path. That was the first major inflection point. And the second one, I believe, is happening this year. In five or ten years, I’ll be able to reflect on what it meant for my life and how it made a difference. At the moment, I’m still living day to day, occasionally worrying that I’ll end up living under a bridge because nobody will pay me. You know how it goes, sometimes it’s really scary, super scary. But for now, I’m taking it one step at a time—bridge or no bridge. It’s all okay. In the future, with a bit of distance and perspective, I’ll be able to look back and say, “Ah, that’s the impact it had on my life.” So, those are the two significant inflection points, I would say.

Liv: So the first thing I would say is, I think the Northern Irish thing is why we are in the same room rather than over the phone, because all my dad’s family is all from Northern Ireland. My grandma, who I loved to pieces was Northern Irish. So yes, I am totally with you in terms of the type of people, that Northern Ireland breeds. The other one is, I like to think that in about five years time you’ll be saying that your pivotal moment was doing this podcast when you realised that you had to then swim the channel.

Caoimhe: Oh, no. I’d forgotten about that already! Short attention span…

Liv: I think that brings us to the end of the of the episode. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It has been incredible to meet you in person. I cannot wait to hear about you swimming the channel…

Caoimhe: It’s a lot of pressure. I know I’ve done that to myself.

Liv: You totally have. No, seriously. Thank you so much.

Caoimhe: Thank you very much for having me. It was a real pleasure to chat. And yeah I’m really very appreciative to be considered amongst some of the women that you have interviewed previously. There’s some incredible people on that list.

Liv: It’s been an absolute pleasure to have you, now let’s go do some karaoke!