This Girl KAM with Susie Barnes

Liv: Hi Susie, welcome to the show! I’m grateful that we found a slot for this. So, thank you. Before we start, could you tell us a bit about yourself and where you started and where you are now?

Susie: Sure, thanks Liv. My name is Susie Barnes and I’m a physician. I qualified as a doctor back in 1999 and spent ten years in the National Health Service in the UK. In 2009, after some career coaching, I decided to enter the pharmaceutical industry. I worked at a company called Servier Laboratories for five years and since 2014, I’ve been with GSK in the Medical Affairs department. I’ve been lucky enough to have a bit of a journey around the world with GSK, working in the UK, Canada, Japan, and most recently in the US. But, as you hinted, I’m about to move back to the UK, which I’m really excited about after seven years.

Liv: That’s fantastic. Can you tell me about your time as a GP? I think I was wrapping up during some of that time and I’m interested in knowing your perception of the industry during those early days.

Susie: Of course. When I graduated from medical school, many of my friends had a clear idea of what they wanted to do, whether it was orthopedic surgery, brain surgery, or cardiology, but I wasn’t sure. So I took a meandering path as a junior doctor, doing some anesthesia and later becoming a GP. It was interesting, as reps would visit us, but it was difficult when they’d come to see us when we’d just finished a four-hour surgery and had five home visits to attend. To be honest, I wasn’t always open to reps, but now I understand the challenges they face. I think being a rep or an MSSL is a difficult but fantastic job to start in the industry. However, we did have some great experiences with educational talks from the industry. I think what drove me to consider the industry was a combination of factors. I was a good GP, but it took everything out of me and I didn’t feel like I could do everything I needed to do for my patients. It was difficult to get investigations for my patients, and I felt like I was constantly having to make a big case to get them referred or to get an MRI, for example. After career coaching, I took the leap into the industry with SE Laboratories, and it turned out to be the most fulfilling thing I’ve ever done. It was great to understand the healthcare environment more broadly, and my journey around the world has taught me about the complexity of healthcare environments, regulatory environments, and payer environments. This has fueled my passion for focusing on the right patient outcomes and for developing people and seeing them grow in their careers.

Liv: So is that what drives you? You didn’t find it fulfilling in your early days as a GP, but you found it in the industry.

Susie: When you start in the industry, especially as a medic, you’re often plagued with job bags and signing off on promotional material. But being a medic in the industry is much more than that now. It’s a much more strategic function. What drives me is asking questions and working with the external community, whether it’s healthcare professionals, patients, or the payer community, to determine what good care looks like now and in the future. It’s that long-term planning and looking at long-term outcomes, and the ability to partner with the healthcare community to try and shape healthcare. I’ve learned along the way that this is what drives me, and seeing people grow within a role is incredibly fulfilling. I’ve been leading teams for the last 10 years now and the joy of seeing somebody grow within a role, really understand what they’re good at, where they need to develop, and then seeing them leap into that, that next journey for them and enjoying the journey as well, not just going, okay, I’m getting the next grade.

It’s, what does my journey look like?

Liv: Yeah, I like that. It’s fascinating to understand people, isn’t it? The different motivators for people.

Susie: Absolutely. Everyone has very different motivators, and as a leader, you need to be able to understand what motivates people in order to help them develop in the best way.

Liv: So throughout your career, what do you think are some of the moments you’re most proud of?

Susie: Gosh. Some of my proudest moments at work have been when I have been working with a high-performing team and seeing medicines be launched in countries, which is huge. It really takes an army and we don’t realize how much input it takes from so many parts of the business.

I was involved in the launch of a large vaccine in Canada and some interesting launches in Japan, which required us to work hard to understand the environment and shape it around COPD. In Japan, people didn’t understand what COPD was and everyone had either asthma or asthma and COPD, but nobody had pure COPD. We recognised that they actually had the same condition as people in the rest of the world, but they just called it something different.

So that was really fascinating to work through. It’s not just about getting a regulatory filing, it’s also about making sure the medicine is utilised by the right patients and the physicians understand which patients could benefit. So I feel really passionate about my role as a medical professional to make sure we see the actual uptake of the medicine.

Liv: Have there been times in your career when you felt impacted by your gender, being female?

Susie: Gosh, this is a good question. Honestly, no, I haven’t been denied roles I wanted or felt I was a legitimate candidate for. But yes, I have been in environments where there was a slight toxicity around gender and I have experienced harassment.

Liv: Can you tell me a bit more about that?

Susie: There were environments that were very male-dominated, where females were treated badly and there were disparaging comments about them. I wasn’t always the person involved, but I’ve seen it.

When I went to Japan in 2018 to be the head of medical affairs, diversity and inclusion were the key areas of focus, especially gender and age. When I arrived, many of the people around me were older males, and I was a surprise to them as a mouthy, opinionated Brit.

There was an assumption that I was there for work experience, but I was actually asked to go there. It started me on my journey of leadership in terms of how I needed to work in a different way, as I had experienced male-dominated environments in the past. I needed to be seen as an equal and then become a leader of most of those people.

But then, how do I focus on diversity and inclusion in that culture where I wasn’t brought up in it? I had to spend time understanding it and also helping other females. We set up a women’s leadership initiative in Japan in 2020 and it was fantastic to see the growth over time. It was difficult at times, but we had a fantastic leader there and a real focus from the lead team on making it right.

As a female role model, I try to help other females, but it can be difficult when people say that females should have it all – a married life with kids, and a fantastic career as a leader. But I’m not married and don’t have kids, and that’s just where my journey has taken me, not necessarily by choice. But I can still be a role model and say you can have it all. By realising that, everybody’s journey’s really different and I can be a role model in different ways as well. That was a real light bulb moment for me in Japan in terms of how to support other females and also the males, actually. It’s not just about females saying, I need a seat at the table. You need everyone to understand why diversity, including diversity of thought and experience is really important in any high performing team.

Liv: Absolutely… You touched on that there, Susie, about the fact that you don’t have children and that you are not married. And in a way, it sounds like, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you’ve felt that this has almost been a bias that you’ve experienced, or maybe that you’ve put upon yourself. That feeling of guilt.

Susie: Yeah, I think whichever way you look at it, we all have our guilt on our own self-bias. It was really interesting. I ended up leaving the UK in 2016 to go to Canada for my first international experience. That really came about because I split up from a previous relationship and it gave me that openness to say, “Okay, I’m going to go and have an adventure.” During the pandemic, I worked with a fantastic leader who was at GSK. He was now working in the diversity and inclusion field as a speaker. We did a session with my Japanese team on diversity and inclusion and belonging. The sense of belonging and how we make each other and help each other belong. As part of the team, she then asked me to do a Clubhouse interview during the pandemic. It was a representation of everybody and their different lifestyles, having kids, not having kids, being a single parent. And I shared my journey. One of the other panelists said to me, “Wow, Susie, that’s really amazing to hear your story. But quite frankly, if I didn’t have kids, I wouldn’t know what my purpose was.” And I grimaced through it and got through the rest of the interview with the panel. But it really impacted me. I was really quite offended and it made me feel as though I wasn’t good enough. And clearly, I know I am good enough. It was a really quite seminal moment for me to understand, “What is my purpose?” And for me, my purpose is my family and friends, it’s enjoying life, but it’s also I have a massive purpose around what I do. I really feel strongly about, even that little step at a time, we have the ability to really impact patients’ lives. So I feel very confident in that. But that was quite a knock. And I recognize that maybe other people could feel that as well. So, I have a real role to play there.

Liv: I completely agree. And I think that’s really important that you were able to have that moment of reflection and recognise that it had impacted you, had offended you, had upset you, but then had that time to say, “Okay, what is important to me? What is my purpose?” And you managed to turn it on its head into something much more positive. Absolutely… And that in itself is really inspiring for everyone. I think this is important about this podcast because I think the more conversations we have like this with different people coming with their own experience of whatever that might be. It brings the conversation to the table.

Susie: Doesn’t it? If we can help other people reflect on their own situations and say, “This is me, this is what I love doing,” and actually just reevaluate and think, “I am good enough. I don’t have kids, but actually I am good enough.”

Liv: Yes, and look at what you’ve achieved in your career so far.

Susie: So far, it all feels, honestly, it always feels a little bit like trial and error, but I’ve really been incredibly lucky. I’ve had leaders and mentors who have invested in me over the last few years, and I’m incredibly grateful for that., I feel like I always have the responsibility to pay it forward, which is why I’m so passionate about supporting others in their development. Development is not a passive thing, it requires effort and self-reflection. Understanding what drives you, what motivates you, what you’re good at, and what you’re not good at is key, and being honest with yourself is crucial.

I see many people in the industry who are just focused on getting to the next grade or job, but I encourage people to balance both development and enjoyment. It’s important to feel like you’re adding value while also growing and developing.

Liv:  GSK are big on mentoring aren’t they. I spoke to Deb about this, as you probably heard. She talked about having so many incredible mentors. She likes to pay it forward too. Do you have mentors outside of GSK or mentor people outside of the company, or is it very company-focused?

Susie: It’s predominantly company-focused, and it’s often informal. People will often reach out to me and ask for a chat. Mentoring is like a big spider web of networking, and I enjoy connecting people as well. I keep in touch with people outside of the company and have informal conversations with them, and I will help connect them to potential roles if I can.

We have a Women’s Leadership Initiative at GSK, and there is a lot of support both formally and informally. Mentoring is a very personal thing, and I always talk to my team about it. I can suggest mentors, but it’s important to find the right mentor for you and understand what you want to get out of the experience. It requires investment from both parties. Mentoring can be fun, you get to know people from different roles and parts of the world.

I am also an appraiser for the General Medical Council and GSK, and I appraise other physicians from early development to later clinical development. It’s a fantastic way to understand what’s going on in the business.

Liv: Chatting with people from different walks of life keeps things interesting, doesn’t it?

Susie: Yes, it’s how we learn and it’s fun.

Liv: You can’t come on this show without being asked about your “sliding doors” moment. I should have sent you the movie. I’ve asked every single guest about their sliding doors moment, and one guest hadn’t heard of the movie before. Have you had any sliding doors moments that you’d like to share with us?

Susie: I think I’ve had a lot of them. One of them was definitely going into industry. It was a difficult decision as a medic, but it has shaped the rest of my life and all of the fantastic experiences I’ve had. Another one was going to Japan. It was by serendipity that someone called me and asked if I was interested in helping out. I said yes, very naively, having never been to Japan but always wanting to work in Asia. It was a difficult place to work, but also the most rewarding because of what we achieved as a team. I feel lucky to have been there and still miss Tokyo and the ability to travel around Japan. It was a privilege.

Liv: So just touching back on the sliding doors question, if we go back even further to before becoming a GP, what made you want to become a GP? And if you hadn’t, what do you think you would have done? What did you want to be when you grew up, when you were a child?

Susie: Oh gosh. I think I wanted to be a doctor for a long time and my mum tells me of something that happened very early on. I don’t know whether I was five or six, but we were reading a book about nurses and doctors and I pointed to the nurse and said, “I want to be a nurse.” And my mum said, “Why don’t you want to be a doctor?” And I said, “Because girls can’t be doctors.” She said, “They can be doctors.” My mum was a teacher and was very driven in supporting us to do what we wanted to do. So that probably was quite pivotal. It happened at a really young age.

I think when I was at school, I just really needed something to focus on. I was very shy at school and I needed something to focus on. I think doing something vocational was really important to me. One of the things I considered was joining the RAF and being sponsored through medical school. It was all planned out. But then I was having a permanent residency in medical school and that didn’t happen. So that’s perhaps one minor regret because I think I would have really loved to have had that experience. But it’s not that I’ve been short of experiences despite that.

I was lucky. I did a round-the-world trip for three months and went to Fiji and New Zealand. Some people went off to do ER in Chicago, some people went to South Africa, and my friends and I went to a nice tropical island called Fiji.

Liv: Wow. Nice. Yeah, that would have been great. So really, I suppose you did just want to be a doctor.

Susie: I did. Yeah, I did. But as I said earlier, I wanted to be a doctor, but then I almost became a doctor and then thought, “Oh my goodness, what’s next?” I didn’t have a very clear view of where I needed to go then. And as I said, I did two years of anesthetics and went on to become a GP because I met my ex-boyfriend. We wanted to get married and have kids. And that felt like the right thing to do. It wasn’t as simple as that. Being a GP was a really difficult job, but if I hadn’t been a GP and if I was still in clinical medicine now, one of the things that I would have done is women’s health.

I loved antenatal care and I think I would have probably stuck with that. I just didn’t want to do obstetrics and gynacology because I would be a terrible surgeon. But the other parts of obstetrics and gynacology and women’s health were things that I was really interested in. I actually also set up a sexual health clinic within Buckinghamshire. I worked with the health commissioners of Buckinghamshire Council, and they wanted to understand what it would be like to bring an intermediate care sexual health service outside the sexual health clinic where I was working as a clinical assistant. We put a specification together and my surgery said, “Look, shall we put in a tender for it?”

So we ended up running this sexual health surgery clinic from a number of doctor’s clinics around Buckinghamshire. We had it centrally organised from the Marlow surgery and we were able to offer appointments to people outside the sexual health clinic, where it’s quite taboo to do so. We were able to do testing for the worried well, which is really important. And it was fun as well; it took me away from the day-to-day grind.

Liv: So you’re coming back to the UK?

Susie: I am.

Liv: What’s brought that about?

Susie: It’s time, actually. I’ve had some wonderful experiences and I’ve been incredibly lucky. I was in Canada for two years in Toronto and I met some fantastic people at work. I went to Tokyo, which was an experience that will be difficult to replace, and I’ve been in the US for a year. I’m now the head of global medical first specialty care, and I can do that in the UK or the US.

But after seven years, it’s time. I’m conscious that many of my team are in the UK and my parents are getting older. I’ve also got many family and friends in the UK, and it feels like it’s time to go back and rebuild that community. It’s probably a personal decision more than a professional one, but it’s been fantastic being in the US. It’s a hugely important and complex market, so the ability to understand this market has been invaluable. But it’s time, I’m really excited to go back home. I’ve got just over two weeks before I head back for good, but I’ll be traveling into the US and other places many times.

Liv: Do you think that’s it for you in terms of living abroad?

Susie: No, no. Anything goes, but it would depend on the opportunity. I’m adaptable and I like change, so it really depends.

Liv: Absolutely. Okay, so we’ve talked about what you’re most proud of. What do you feel are the most significant hurdles that you’ve had to overcome in your career?

Susie: Gosh, my career has been trial and error, and on reflection, I think my biggest hurdles have been myself and my self-belief. I’m driven and a problem solver, but I also have constant self-doubts. Imposter syndrome is real, and we all want to be brilliant at things and find it hard when we’re not. I think working through that has been one of the most important things. It’s still there, and I work with a coach on it. But that’s definitely been one of my biggest hurdles.

Liv: Hearing people like you talk about imposter syndrome is a really positive thing. It gives people like me hope!

Susie: We need to be open about these things, and being open and sharing experiences is important. I love hearing about other people because it makes me feel better when I hear that they’ve had similar experiences.

Liv:  I think it’s an important thing to talk about in terms of managing it and being aware of it, and then coping and moving forward and learning to shape your career. You mentioned having a coach, and that’s one key way of doing it. I had a coach myself for a short time to help me understand my values and what was important to me, really just get to the bottom of what I actually wanted.

Susie: It allows you to focus on what’s really important. I think when we are really busy and there’s lots going on, you can get to the point where you can’t see the wood for the trees. Having that mindfulness to pull yourself out and say, “What’s really important?” is crucial.

Liv: Work-life balance is a big driver for you to head back to the UK, right?

Susie: That’s right. I have no illusions that it’s the panacea, but I have less work-life balance here in the US. Understanding when to stop and taking care of oneself is crucial.

Liv:  So, have you got any plans lined up for when you get to London that don’t involve work?

Susie: Yes, I have. I’ve bought a new flat and I have things to do there. I also have standing invitations to see friends and family around the country that I haven’t seen in years. I always end up feeling guilty for not seeing everyone, but I have plans to see family, friends, and godsons, as well as some exciting trips lined up.

Liv: Fabulous. My guest last week told me that she joined a choir that sings West End musicals every week in London and Manchester. I’m planning to join the one in Manchester in the spring.

Susie: That’s a great idea! One of my hobbies is playing the clarinet and saxophone. I played with the Maidenhead Concert Band for about 12 years and loved it. I loved playing with people from all walks of life, from summer fairs to Buckingham Palace at a garden party to the Henley Regatta. So, I’m looking forward to getting back into music, whether it’s with the band or a choir!

Liv: I’ll introduce you to Lisa and send you the website. It looks amazing.

Susie: Thanks, I appreciate it. Although, I won’t have loads of time, work-life balance is important!

Liv: Exactly. You’ve been fantastic to chat with, Susie. I really appreciate you taking the time, knowing how busy you are.

Susie:It’s been a pleasure. Thank you for having me!