This Girl KAM with Jennifer Leng

In her most recent role, Jen was Business Franchise Head of Oncology at Novartis. During our interview she shared with me her passion for equity of access to medicine for patients, along with her drive to ensure everyone in pharma recognises their individual worth.

Liv: Hi Jen, and welcome to the first ever episode of This Girl KAM! Before we begin, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

Jen: I’ve been in pharma for all of my career, which is just about 20 years. I started in sales. I did three years in as a rep in Glasgow. In both primary and secondary care. And then I moved down into head office as a training manager for sales and marketing in specialty care products, hospital and specialty care products. From there I went into marketing. I had the opportunity to do some marketing training and then do my marketing diploma.

This really ignited my passion for communication, and brand planning strategy. I really enjoy, that side of the business. From there I went to franchise manager and then, head of strategy planning and organization, then my last role, as business franchise head for solid tumor oncology.

Outside of that I I’m married. I have one daughter who is nearly seven. We live in the south of England, despite what my mom would want really!

Liv: So yes, you are clearly from Scotland originally! Tell me about when you decided to move from Scotland down south, that was work related, wasn’t it?

Jen: Yes, this was a kind of sliding doors moment. I always am curious as to what my life would’ve been like if I hadn’t moved down to the south of England. I’d been asked to move down a number of times for maybe about 18 months before I was able to and then a change circumstances meant that I could take the opportunity. I convinced myself, and my mum, that it was only going to be for six months, maximum two years. 18 years later, I’m still here. She still asks me when I’m coming home. But, we’re very much firmly down here now.

I don’t think my career would’ve been limited if I had been in Scotland. I think I would’ve had to make different choices. I’ve got great friends that still live in Scotland that have had super successful careers working in probably a broader range of companies than I have.

They’ve worked for med devices, med tech, some small startups, some more research focussed, and I like to think that’s probably what I would’ve done if I’d stayed. But that’s the choice I made and the choice I continue to make.

Liv: I don’t know what I’d have done if somebody wanted me to move down south. I’ve always said I’m firmly northern. But, it does make you wonder, the difference that it could make to the career you have. Head offices always tend to be in the south, don’t they?

Jen: Yeah, they definitely do. But I think there’s some really exciting smaller companies in Scotland and North of England as well. Maybe not your traditional big pharma, but still exciting, challenging and purpose driven.

I had a very good friend, that moved back to the north, who now has a global career, working with, Smith and Nephew, based up in Hull.

I’d like to think that if I’d stayed in Glasgow then, I would’ve probably diversified a little bit and maybe had more experience.

Liv: Did you meet your husband down south as well?

Jen: Yes. He’s originally from North Yorkshire but he was living in the south of England when we met. He was in the military, posted down here and we were based in different places all over the south of England over the last 10 years.

Liv: Oh wow. Was he in the military when you had your daughter?

Jen: Yes, I guess it affected the sort of different choices that we had. My career limited us going to Germany or being posted in an abroad posting. So we stayed in the south of England, and moved around in those areas. So I was always still able to work, albeit, maybe with a bit more of a commute to certain places. It certainly impacted, but it wasn’t just me that had to make sacrifices. It was him as well.

Liv: So, you had a solid start to your career at Abbott, tell us about when you left?

Jen: This is probably a sliding door moment that might resonate with people as well.

I was at a point asking, do I stay, 12 years is a long time for any company, or do I take a big jump and go and work for other companies? Both have their merits, I chose to leave Abbott after 12 years to test myself a little bit.

I felt, from my confidence perspective, I was just a product of Abbott and needed to know if I could work anywhere else. Whether I had transferable skills, that I can work in different therapy areas and get more experience in areas outside of the ones that Abbot were involved in.
So I left after 12 years and did a couple of contracting jobs that allowed me to experience different cultures.
I went to a company that was very focused in one area, Diabetes, at Novo Nordisk. Then, I moved to, Sanofi, which was my first experience of Oncology. To experience that, from a very selfish perspective, to have those types of therapy areas on my CV, along with the different cultures in those two companies, was great. Every culture you go to is so different so finding one that fits you is key.

Liv: When do you feel you found the right culture?

Jen: I think there was aspects of all of the places that I really enjoyed. I enjoy cultures that are inclusive. I’ve worked for companies that have been much better at that than others. It’s a lot to do with the leadership. When I’ve chosen to leave it has been because there’s been a big shift and, I’m a believer that I’d rather move and find somewhere else, then stay and complain.

Liv: If you go back over your career, when do you feel that you really found your passion or do you still feel like you’re still on the hunt for that?

Jen: I think I’m a work in progress. I really enjoy Oncology. But I’m passionate about equity of access, about patients being able to access medicines and our role in that.

Whether that be in Oncology, Rheumatology, HIV, or Diabetes it’s important wherever you are. Whether you are the sibling, mother, daughter of somebody who has a condition that requires a life changing medicine, then I believe that we should have access to it, or we should at least know about it.

At the very minimum we should know and be able to find out whether it’s going to make a difference for them or not.

I think that is where my purpose lies, that equity of access and passion for patients.

I love business. I think they’re not mutually exclusive. We’re a very valuable part of the system. It always frustrates me when we devalue ourselves and almost apologize for being a business that that provides medicine.

I’m passionate about our part in the healthcare system.

Liv: It’s so important. To re-establish the value and the purpose of why we do what we do. I think that can often get lost in the day job. I can pinpoint certain times over others where I felt it was really clear the good I was doing. I’d love to know more about how you go about fostering that culture in a business?

Jen: Everybody is responsible for customer interactions, whether you’re head office or sales, medical customer service, everybody. The massive frustration for me is when we undervalue our own roles, we’ve got a super important job to communicate what it is that we do, our medicines and what value they can bring to patients. It’s not just about the meetings that they get invited to or the sales aid or patient packs, they’re all parts of the service, but the really key part is, how do we help patients?

If you’ve got somebody that you care about that has a condition that they need medicine for, then that’s the most important condition that there is in the world.

Liv: Let’s go back a little bit, focussing on you personally again, to the very start of your career. Are there any key bits of advice you would go back and give yourself now if you could?

Jen: Yes… learn from everything. I get annoyed when things haven’t gone my way, when I’ve not got the job that I wanted and that sort of thing.

But, if I could go back and just say , the things that you learned from that process, the things that you learned about yourself, about the company, about the role, then it would have maybe put it in perspective and maybe I wouldn’t have taken it so personally. I can look back now and think , the times that I was so annoyed and frustrated , and things seemed so unjust. Actually? It was fine. Things were fine and I was probably better off for that decision.

So I guess being a bit kinder to myself and being a bit more aware about the experiences I was having and how valuable they were in themselves.

The other thing I guess, is that everybody suffers from imposter syndrome. I came back from maternity leave into a new role and felt totally overwhelmed. The four other people that were in the role were more experienced. They were all guys. They knew each other. They had lots of other things in common, than I thought I did .But that didn’t make them better.

So I guess, imposter syndrome? Accept it. Be aware of it. And talk about it. I can look back and see where I’ve tried to show bravado to get my way out of it, but actually that didn’t help me in the long run.

I should probably just have talked about it more.

Liv: You talked about coming back after maternity leave, so tell me more about your return to work after having your daughter?

Jen: My daughter was just under 10 months when I went back to work, I chose to go back full time. But I went back to a different role in the same organization. I went back to a franchise manager role.

My decision to go back full time definitely affected our childcare choices. We didn’t live close to any family.

I went back into a role. Brand new, and there were four other people doing the franchise manager job. They’d been around for a bit longer than me, all guys. It was a bit strange going back to work after being off for 10 months and going into a new role.

It was difficult for me to readjust. I didn’t enjoy it for a good few months. I was torn about, Josie, who’s my daughter, being in nursery, although she loved it, she learned more from nursery than she ever did from the 10 months with me. I liked the role, but the environment was different.

I had changed too, I think. I don’t underestimate that I had changed. But I made a conscious choice to stay until I’d learned everything I could. I took whatever I could from it. So after I’d made that decision, I started to enjoy it.

When my next role came, I still worked full time, but I joined Novartis. It was closer to where I lived and where Josie was at nursery. The culture felt more flexible and a bit more accepting of the situation. I don’t believe my situation was any better or worse than anybody else’s. It was just my situation and, I guess it’s just being a bit cognizant that not one size is going to fit all. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t, it’s not anybody’s fault. Just choose to do something that is positive and go to an environment where you feel more valued or that will fit your lifestyle more.

Liv: Reflecting on that time in particular , for any woman, that return to work after having children. I don’t think it’s possible to overstate how much of an impact that has on you when you go through that period, it would be impossible to give too much support in those situations, really, because it is so tough.

Jen : Thankfully we talk lots more about changes in people’s lives now, whether it be having a child or having more than one child or, or the process of having to go through to get through that child. Or at the other end of this picture, when people are talking about, as everybody is at the moment about menopause, about mental health, especially in men and getting them talking within a certain age group. I think we’ve come on leaps and bounds for all those things.

I guess when you have a baby, gender impact does become more important. I come from a family of sisters. I went to a girl school, so when I started working, I wasn’t particularly aware that there would be differences. It was only when you start seeing people, leaving to have families and then coming back, feeling that they had to apologize for leaving on time to go and pick up their children.

I think increased flexible working has levelled this out, but equally flexibility works both ways. There’s lots of things that we need to be flexible for, but in order to do that then, as a business we also need to sustain ourselves.

Liv: We’ve all heard about more and more women suffering from burnout. But on the other side of the scale, we also have “bored out”. You are either doing everything and doing it all, or you’re just going through the motions, and then you’re lacking stimulation. Is that something you’ve experienced?

Jen: I definitely have, but I couldn’t tell you that I recognized it in the moment. I think it’s only possible with hindsight to think, ah that’s why I didn’t enjoy that, or that’s why I got really annoyed or upset about that! I was just bored!

During covid, we all went hell for leather, everything was 24 7. You were trying to do everything. I don’t meditate. I’ve tried to, I just never managed to do it. But I do find time now to just switch off, whether it be walking the dog or even just watching something rubbish or a rerun of friends on the tv. To just switch off and to not be a business franchise, and not be a mum of a seven year old.

Liv: There is nothing a friend’s episode can’t fix…

Jen: 100% They never get old, do they?

That’s what I missed from moving from the field into the office too was the driving time.

Whether it be chatting on the phone to somebody or listening to music that decompression time . Yes, trying to build some of that back into your day, however way you want to is important.

Liv: I don’t know if you even know the answer to this yet but, what’s next for you, do you think?

Jen: I don’t know. I’ve been fortunate and grateful for having had six weeks to have some brilliant conversations with people from all different parts of our industry. From people that have been in big pharma that have moved to biotech that have moved to start up their own business…

But also, people that have gone to work in the NHS, people that have worked in clinical trials. I really feel like I want to take the opportunity to make sure, that I learn something from whatever I do next.

It might be exactly the same and that’s fine, but equally it might not be the job that I do forever and ever, and I’m comfortable with that now.

So I am open to whatever it might be. But I will definitely take with me this time that I’ve had to re-ignite my passion for speaking to people, and actually my general interest in people, and how they’ve moved through their career.

I read something recently. We talk a lot about resilience. About resilience in our workforce, resilience in our children for lots of different reasons.

But actually, is it about resilience or is it about optimism? That struck a chord with me and actually, I am optimistic.

It’s not about being resilient to the hardships, it’s about being optimistic that there will be opportunities at the end of it. Now, when I think about what I can teach my daughter or what I can instil in the teams that I work with, I won’t talk about resilience. I’ll talk about optimism.

Liv: I’m keen to know if you have a crew or a specific person who’s played a key part for you in your career?

Jen: Absolutely. I could not do this without, a number of people. I’m fortunate that I still have some very good friends from when I started school. But equally, I have people that I’ve worked with, and sometimes it’s not the person that you thought it was going to be when you left a company! I definitely would not be able to have confidence in my decisions, be able to admit when I’m wrong, , without people that were willing to tell me that.

I sense check almost everything. It’s not a weakness, it’s just that I work better as part of a crew. Some of those people are people that I have not worked with for 15 years, maybe more than that, but they are super important to me and they still play a part.

I’ve had a very traditional route in pharma. I went sales, I went training, I went marketing. , exactly what people would’ve expected. But, I’m benefiting from listening to people now saying, what if you didn’t go to a big pharma company? Or what if you went back to Scotland?
Sometimes it really helps you see the wood for the trees, I’m grateful that I’ve been able to take a few weeks to do this, and I think it’s opened up questions and lots of opportunity. It’s given me optimism.

Liv: I feel like we’re going to need a part two as I’m dying to know what you will do next!

Thank you so much for chatting to me, it’s been fabulous. Whatever you do next, I’ve no doubt it will be fantastic.

Jen’s currently enjoying a break whilst considering her new role, and after talking to her I will be watching closely to see her next move. It is women like Jen that provide hope for the future of the pharma industry and our important relationship with HCPs.